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Post by joelhaldeman on Dec 30, 2003 17:30:12 GMT -5
hey scot im just curiouse exactly what do you believe? anyone else can answer this if they wany cuz im interested in hearing
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Post by ajmizu on Dec 30, 2003 18:03:37 GMT -5
Okay yeah. Just assume I have no claim. Here ya go: Genesis 1:24: Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind..."Genesis 1:26: Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to our likeness..."AND THEN...Genesis 2:15: Then The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.Genesis 2:18: And then the Lord God said, "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them.Pointed this one out to my youth leader in August. He never got back to me... 18The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” 19Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs£ and closed up the place with flesh. 22Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. -------- This is what the passage REALLY says, with these paragraphs. I don't understand Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, like Joel said, so I don't know the EXACT meanings. But this is a more accurate account of what you were trying to say. It says that God "had" formed the "beasts" and "birds" so, Joel is right, God is restating that fact. Adam was naming the animals, and looking for "a helper suitable for him". It says though that, "But for Adam no suitable helper was found." So none of the animals was suitable for him. That's why God made Eve. H-Zence, you assumed that I assumed that you weren't a Christian. Good assumption, but you shouldn't assume that. I did say "your faith in God." Meaning that you did have faith in God.... hopefully that was clear... But you confuse me. WERE you a Christian in the first place? You said you were, and I did read that post, but now you say that no "Religious" person believes you were. Okay... I believe you. But you say that you had "no ground to stand on" - then what did you believe? I would also like to know what you mean by "There is nothing that I can say to you make you realize what you're doing. Oh well." What am I doing? And what was the logic? I think Christianity is pretty logical. I would recommend the book "Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel. Good case, presenting LOGICAL reasons for believing in Jesus. We most definitely all disagree... that's so sad. I'm praying for each and every one of you. Why? Because I care. What if you're right? What if all you're saying is true? Joel and I don't loose anything... we just lived a lie, wasting our time. But what if Joel and I are right? What will happen to you all? I really don't want you to blindly follow God because you feel guilt - tripped into it... that's plain ridiculous. But at least you're all thinking about why you believe what you believe.
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Post by joannajones on Dec 30, 2003 18:43:49 GMT -5
hey scot im just curiouse exactly what do you believe? anyone else can answer this if they wany cuz im interested in hearing I'm a christian and I believe in the bible.
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Post by ajmizu on Dec 30, 2003 18:47:19 GMT -5
Heres a contradiction for you, clear as day too. "God is not like men, who lie; he is not a human who changes his mind. Whatever he promises, he does; he speaks and it is done."---------Numbers 23:19 "So the lord changed his mind and did not bring on his people the disaster he threatened"---- Exodus 32:14 pretty self explanatory, and some people try to argue it (un-effectively) so if you wanna prod it we can do that. Shoot. I asked my father concerning these verses, and he directed me to a commentary on Exodus as well as Numbers. In order to communicate the author’s point with the most clarity possible, I have decided to quote the text word for word on what it says about Exodus 32:14. This is what it says: (btw: anthropomorphism, rather the root word “anthropomorphic,” is defined as: “1. Ascribing human form or attributes to a thing or being not human, as to a deity. 2. Resembling or made to resemble a human form,” according to the Random House Webster’s College Dictionary. In this context, the first form is used. “YHWH repented. Another ‘anthropomorphism’ by which God’s activity is explained, by analogy, in strictly human terms. The meaning is not that God changed his mind; still less that he regretted something that He had intended to do. It means, in biblical language, that he now embarked on a different course of action from that already suggested as a possibility, owing to some new factor, which is usually mentioned in the context. In the Bible, it is clear that God’s promises and warnings are always conditional on man’s response: this is most clearly set out in Ezekiel 33:13-16. [this says “13When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. 14Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die.] We are not to think of Moses as altering God’s purpose towards Israel by this prayer, but as carrying it out: Moses was never more like God than in such moments, for he shared God’s mind and loving purpose.” In the Numbers commentary, it tells us that: “God is…not a man that he should change his mind. He cannot be manipulated by magic or dictated to by seers, even those of the stature of Balaam.” Balaam was the man who said these words. Hopefully these commentaries helped you to understand these verses and these commentaries EFFECTIVELY explain these.
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Post by Scot on Dec 30, 2003 18:48:02 GMT -5
I am agnostic.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Dec 30, 2003 21:52:19 GMT -5
When there is a problem with the bible there is always an answer. people have been trying to do this for years and never have gotten far.
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Post by H-Zence on Dec 30, 2003 22:09:21 GMT -5
Absolutely not what I'm saying. I'm saying it doesn't make any sense that the bible would say that God said "I'll make Adam a helper" and then in the same line TOTALLY change what it was talking about. THAT doesn't make sense.
It would make sense if it was totally different paragraphs. But it wasn't. It was the same line, which is WHY I disagree with you.
And just because I don't believe the bible is true DOES NOT mean I believe it was fabricated by one man...did you think that's what I believe?
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Post by H-Zence on Dec 30, 2003 22:23:11 GMT -5
Yes, I believe I was a Christian. When I say no religious person believes me (I don't think those were my exact words...but I'm not sure and don't feel like checking), I mean that basically every "Christian" I've talked to says that because I'm no longer a Christian, I could never have been one of "God's chosen people" in the first place - I couldn't have ever truly been Christian. Which kinda makes me mad, to say the least. As for the "make you realize what you're doing"...I was rushed while I was posting this. Lol. Scratch that line...it doesn't make any sense. As far as "what if you and joel are right" thing - that's why I'm agnostic and not an atheist. I don't think Christianity is wrong. Everything I'm saying here could be wrong - and I accept that. I just need to be proven wrong before I accept the fact that there really is a God. Or, I need my evidence against Christianity to be proven right before I become totally against it. I haven't gotten any proof yet....so I continue to wait. But please, oh pretty please, don't try to scare me into being a Christian. As an agnostic I accept that if I die today and Christianity is true, then I'm most likely going to hell. But I also believe - whether you agree or not - that IF there is a God, He wants us to use our brains which He gaves us and really CONTEMPLATE whether or not He's there without blindly following. Thanks for the answers so far on the contradiction I pointed out...though I don't agree with them, at least they're answers at all.
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Post by Scot on Dec 30, 2003 23:06:44 GMT -5
What if you're right? What if all you're saying is true? Joel and I don't loose anything... we just lived a lie, wasting our time. Let's not make religion sound like an insurance policy. What if buddhists are right? What if, what if. Meh. We would all go to hell and burn, of course. I really don't like the idea of being scared into religion. It really doesn't make sense to me. I don't feel God, I don't want God. I honestly can't make myself believe that he's there, even if I say it. So I am going to go to hell and burn for eternity because I honestly deep down don't feel that God exists? It all just seems like a big game to me. So God makes us blindly follow him our whole lives for salvation, but if we question him, we get damned. I'm sure God would be laughing at me right now. He must take a lot of pleasure out of what he does.
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Dec 30, 2003 23:31:44 GMT -5
Let's not make religion sound like insurance policy. What if buddhists are right? What if, what if. Meh. We would all go to hell and burn, of course. I really don't like the idea of being scared into religion. It really doesn't make sense to me. I don't feel God, I don't want God. I honestly can't make myself believe that he's there, even if I say it. So I am going to go to hell and burn for eternity because I honestly deep down don't feel that God exists? It all just seems like a big game to me. So God makes us blindly follow him our whole lives for salvation, but if we question him, we get damned. I'm sure God would be laughing at me right now. He must take a lot of pleasure out of what he does. nicely said. first, joel, when you say people who try and disprove the bible or show its falseness havent gotten far your wrong, all you have to do is read and you'd be amazed at all the fucked up things in that book, and how twisted up some of it is, for example the geneaologies. as for that whole "what if we're right?" bullshit. well, its bullshit. Its a LAME LAME LAME way of trying to talk someone into converting. A bit of fear is thrown in but thats not where its real intentions lie, what that shitty line really means is "you may as well be a christian and not take the risk". thats fucking faggotry. Spreading your religion in any way you can. Who cares if they are real christians or if they are christian for convenience, as long as you can tell yourself you brought someone to christ its all a good days work. converting to christianity = getting lost. I hope every church the government pays for burns tonight.
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Post by joannajones on Dec 31, 2003 0:56:30 GMT -5
I hope every church the government pays for burns tonight. Wow.... I think that was a little harsh
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Post by H-Zence on Dec 31, 2003 1:09:23 GMT -5
Yeah...it was.
Calm down John...
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Dec 31, 2003 1:36:47 GMT -5
Wow.... I think that was a little harsh no, it wasnt harsh at all. Because if you didnt notice I said "that the government pays for". Bush has tried to use public tax dollars, that means MY money, and millions (yes millions) of other atheist's tax dollars to build christian churches. A clear violation of separation of church and state. So yes, each and every church recieving ANY form of government aid can burn to the ground tonight, I'll do a dance. We need to re- establish the line between religion and government as it has become rather blurry. Bush needs to get out of office.
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Post by H-Zence on Dec 31, 2003 1:39:17 GMT -5
You should mention that in the political forums.
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Dec 31, 2003 2:02:16 GMT -5
I will soon, but probably not tonight, im getting drained.
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