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Post by H-Zence on Dec 30, 2003 2:57:27 GMT -5
Okay yeah. Just assume I have no claim. Here ya go:
Genesis 1:24: Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind..."
Genesis 1:26: Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to our likeness..."
AND THEN...
Genesis 2:15: Then The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.
Genesis 2:18: And then the Lord God said, "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them.
Pointed this one out to my youth leader in August. He never got back to me...
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Dec 30, 2003 3:01:51 GMT -5
Pointed this one out to my youth leader in August. He never got back to me... yeah, how ironic. whats more ironic, and really, really makes me angry, is after they are presented with this and fail to even reply, they still go on preaching to the youth, corrupting the youth. Why in the fuck would a youth leader who cant even defend his religion against a bible contradiction continue to preach this to people? its ridiculous.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Dec 30, 2003 3:03:21 GMT -5
The point i was tryoing to make with the simple pleasures was not about people choice to believe in god or not. I know you guys arnt saying "if i believe in God ill have to be good, so im going to sin" I understand you guys believe what you believe because it makes sence to you. the point i was tryign to make was little choices day to day, like whether or not to look at pornography or wheterer or bnot to go tot he drinking party.(NOW IM NOT SAYING YOU GUYS ALL DO THAT). What i was saying was apparently put in the wrong place. Im not trying to say you guys are bad people. Yeah you guys are nice, i get treated much worse by other christians. Although if you read through these posts i sure was being put down a WHOLE LOT. And ya know dont make it sound like im calling you guys crazy and your not doing the same to me. I have read enough posts of you guys putting down jesus and making fun of him. You guys do the same thing so dont accuse me of doing it when you do the same.
The star thing... Your right i dont know what im talking about here abnd yes i am just thinking of ways for it to make sence. Ya wanna know why? Because i wasnt there and either were you. We have to think of things that make sence and think about different things. I was not expecting to have my throat cut for wondering. We must assume, when we dont know and we have no information about something we have to assume. EVOLUTION? assuming!
I will look into those bible verses and i will see what i can find and tell you guys later. But i dont want everyone to go out and look up verses that contradict. I do not know everything and i do not know greek hebrew or aramaik, the languages that the bible was origionally written in. as for now i need sleep its 2am
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Post by H-Zence on Dec 30, 2003 3:05:17 GMT -5
No, we were all putting each other down. No worries.
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Post by Scot on Dec 30, 2003 3:11:00 GMT -5
I really see what you are saying here. It does make sense.
This is why I am agnostic. What Dan was saying about time made a lot of sense, but what you are saying now makes sense....gah.... *brain explodes*
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Post by ajmizu on Dec 30, 2003 3:50:22 GMT -5
I would have to say... there are so many things I could say. Trying to come up with all of them at this time would be insane... Thomas Jefferson, as I have done some research, claimed to be a Christian. Whether or not he was, we do not know. But I would like to point out that the quote could mean something entirely different than what you all are interpreting it as... it could mean that TJ believed God wants us to question if He was really out there. He could have added a clause to be PC, just like many politicians do today. God doesn't want us to follow Him in blind fear, I know that... any one with any sense of reason probably could... what if someone halfway around the world was like "I believe George Bush exists because I am afraid of him." That would be unreasonable. Why? Because there is other proof out there for George Bush's existence than that person's fear. I'm sure you would all agree to that. God gave us the gift of reason. No animal can do that... only humans can! That's amazing! I am saying now, I am a Christian. I believe that God created the universe in seven days. Then God sent His son, Jesus Christ, to be born on earth a couple thousand years later so that He could save us from the "lake of fire" as JohnnyJihadFace put it so nicely for me. This is why we celebrate Christmas. Christmas is the date set aside for having a birthday party for Jesus. We get TWO weeks off of school because of Jesus, "Christmas Vacation" which was chaned to "Winter vacation" to be PC. We also date our years by His birth, although I believe it is a few years off. We also get an "Easter" break, which the politicians also changed to become "Spring" break for PCness. Easter is the day that Jesus Christ rose back to life from death. I would like to ask you all why you believe what you believe. H-Zence, you say that "one day I woke up and realized the reason that I believed what I believed." What was that reason? Why was it so unstable that your faith in God could be shaken so easily? Like you said, its okay to doubt and its good to find out the truth for yourself. Reason why I believe in God: there is bad stuff on earth. I'm almost positive that all here and on earth believe there is a right and a wrong. Several of you have mentioned it. The question is usually posed "If there is a God, how come there is so much evil in the world?" Well, because evil proves there is a God. What is the defining line between right and wrong? No one can say that it is the individual's own decision. If you say so, then come shoot me and see if you don't get tried for murder. If the defining line is decided by the community of persons that you belong to, what happens when a different community of persons disagrees? We have a thing called war. Why do most Americans believe that Saddam Hussain (sp?) was wrong? "He was a mass murderer," "He starved his own people," etc. WHY ARE THOSE THINGS WRONG? Not because the individual says so, not because a community of persons says so. What if, theoretically, the ENTIRE human race is wrong. Lets just imagine that killing people is right. I have to tell you, it HAS to be wrong. if it WERE right, people should be killing people. What happens when you run out of people to kill? Then, theoretically, you would be doing "wrong" by NOT killing people. The only thing left is a "Higher Power." Someone outside the human race that tells us intuitively that murder is wrong. What about getting wasted? What about abortion? What about sex before marriage? What about homosexuality? I don't know what JohnnyJihadFace was thinking... yes God is against those things. Prove to me that God is FOR those things... I would really like to know where you got your info, and I'm not just trying to be an antagonist. And why do you refer to Adam and Eve as if they were real people? How do you know that? (Because the Bible tells us so!) One more thing. Why is it so hard to believe that God created an "Old Earth" (as its called, with the light already here, trees fully grown, animals already adults, humans - Adam and Eve- not babies) If all these things weren't "Old" how in the world do you expect them to SURVIVE?? I don't know if you believe in the THEORY of evolution, but by those standards, "Survival of the fittest" everything would die. With out the sunlight, plants in the ground wouldn't come up, animals wouldn't be able to get to the nonexisent plants, and the babies Adam and Eve would DIE of starvation, if not something else. It really does make sense to create an earth that LOOKS old, but really isn't. What can I say though? God is a genious. After all that, I want to say that I don't want to argue you into believing what I believe. I want you to know and realize that I have reasons as to why I believe what I believe.
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Post by H-Zence on Dec 30, 2003 12:29:22 GMT -5
This is where I start killing things.
You, like SO many other religious people that I have encountered, just totally assume I was not a "strong christian". Oh dear God, I was totally immersed. I was blind though, that's what I realized. I was brainwashed. And there's nothing that I can say to you to prove to you that I actually had a point, because you'll keep assuming that because I'm not a Christian now I never really WAS a christian in the firstplace. Which I HATE about people like that. You believe you're right, no matter what, which now, I look back on that and laugh because I realize that I had no ground to stand on.
The "great awakening" if you will didn't occur in one day only, it occured over a period of a year. When I said one day I woke up, I meant that one day I actually let the logic that was trying to get to me KICK IN. Logic...I suppose to you another word for that is "doubt". WHatever.
There is nothing that I can say to you make you realize what you're doing. Oh well.
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Post by Scot on Dec 30, 2003 12:48:10 GMT -5
I am saying now, I am a Christian. I believe that God created the universe in seven days. Then God sent His son, Jesus Christ, to be born on earth a couple thousand years later so that He could save us from the "lake of fire" as JohnnyJihadFace put it so nicely for me. Hmm, so Jesus came a thousand years later to save all the sinners. What happened to every single sinner before Jesus came? Did they all go to hell? Sorry I really don't mean to be ignorant if there is a logical explanation for this, but it just never made sense to me. Why would God even have to send a son to save the human race? Why couldn't he just do this himself directly rather than working through a man? Honestly, I understand why many don't believe in Jesus in other parts of the world. If some guy appeared today and started claiming to be God's son, I know what I'd think automatically...and that's not trusting him.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Dec 30, 2003 13:42:35 GMT -5
Okay yeah. Just assume I have no claim. Here ya go: Genesis 1:24: Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind..."Genesis 1:26: Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to our likeness..."AND THEN...Genesis 2:15: Then The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.Genesis 2:18: And then the Lord God said, "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them.Pointed this one out to my youth leader in August. He never got back to me... The suitable helper the bible is speaking about in 2:28 is not refering to animals but to Eve. She was created as a helper for Adam. Thats why the helper is called "comparable to him." When Man was in the garden of Eden(im not sure if eve was with him at this point yet or not) God had all the animals come before him so he could name them. This is not a contradiction. When it says that out of the ground God formed every animal it does not mean that he did it at that point. It is restating what he did.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Dec 30, 2003 13:53:29 GMT -5
Hmm, so Jesus came a thousand years later to save all the sinners. What happened to every single sinner before Jesus came? Did they all go to hell? Sorry I really don't mean to be ignorant if there is a logical explanation for this, but it just never made sense to me. Why would God even have to send a son to save the human race? Why couldn't he just do this himself directly rather than working through a man? Back in the day before Jesus, salvation was still possible. Im not much on an old testiment scholar(its rather confusing to me at times) but there was still salvation. It was the same God just a different method. Im not sure about the technicality of it but i know they had to make a sin offering of a lamb to God. I am not sure if they had to do this every so often or if one covered all there sins. From what i understand it was still based on faith in God. We still worship the same God they worshiped in the Old testiment, he has not changed, he did however change the method by which we are to worship him. As for God working through a man, he did not. I mean he did but he didnt. Jesus was not a son created when he had his physical birth on earth. Jesus always existed(John 1:1; 1:14). Jesus was not a man but was God himself. So God put himself in the body of a man to come to earth. So God did work directly, except he put himself in the body of a man. If God had not come as a man but in his full glory and power then his death on the cross would not have been possible(since you can not kill God, but you can kill a man).
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Post by H-Zence on Dec 30, 2003 15:10:44 GMT -5
I disagree. And that's pretty much what it comes down to. Because in my eyes, why would it just talk about eve and then go right to the animals? It's clearly talking about the animals after this. That's the way that I take it and that's the way that I will continue to take it - there is no way around it. You can say that you think that's what it means, but you have no PROOF, so like I said, basically what it comes down to is: we disagree.
Comparable to him? See, to me, animals ARE comparable to human beings...
The end.
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Post by Scot on Dec 30, 2003 15:19:12 GMT -5
Jesus always existed(John 1:1; 1:14). Jesus was not a man but was God himself. So God put himself in the body of a man to come to earth. I have heard this before. But it still makes no sense. God sends his one and only son, HIMSELF, to save us...?
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Post by joelhaldeman on Dec 30, 2003 16:59:02 GMT -5
Well it doesnt really matter how you interpret the bible because there is an incorect way of reading it. IF the bible were a bunch of fabricated lies then the person who wrote it would not be so stupid to put a contradiction so close to eachother. They are within 2 chapters of each other. Now from what i got from your last post H-zence that it is more likely that a compairable helper for adam is an animal and not a wife? You must be kidding me. God created the woman to be a partner for man to be a helper and she is much much much more compairable to adam then a monkey is. I dont care what you tell me there is an incredible difference between animals and man. One has the ability to logically think the other can be trapped by putting a shiney object inside a box with a small whole! It is overly clear that man was made after the animals, if you want to find a contradiction i suggest you find one that works a little bit better. i do not think thats what it means i know thats what it means. God was bringing animals to adam which were formed from the dust and he could not find a suitable helper therfore he made eve a woman who is compairable and a suitable helper. As for Jesus being God himself scot.... The triune of God is a little bit confusing but you have to understand it to understand the bible. The Holy Spirit is God, Jesus is God, God the Father is God. The Holy Spirit is Not Jesus and is not God the Father. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit and not God the Father. God the Father is neither Jesus or the Holy Spirit. In matthew 3:16-17 all the persons on God are seen at the same time all in different forms. In John 14:9-10 Jesus says He and the Father are one. They are the same yet different.
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Dec 30, 2003 17:16:43 GMT -5
I have to go to work, but when i get home its debate throwdown time. haha.
grr.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Dec 30, 2003 17:24:54 GMT -5
johnny doesnt sound to happy, i wont be home tonight because im having a kegger with birch beer ;D and i dont know if ill be back tomorrow at all but i will on friday
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