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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Mar 20, 2004 21:52:30 GMT -5
You have tendency to take things out of context. I said most. Not all. I have to agree with Joel here, John. Do you not have a "biased" and in many cases INACCURATE as you have put it view of Christians? Think.  Read the post I wrote to Joel on the subject. I believe last time I brought it up you replied with: "i dont think anyone can disagree with that". |
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Mar 20, 2004 22:03:55 GMT -5
I've been pondering this for a few minutes, and I know I'll be required to back myself up on my claims of atheists knowing the truth. So I'll get it out of the way: Colliohn said: I don't believe I'm taking this out of context. As one who admits to being an atheist, he is stating that there is no God - as though it is factual. Definition of atheism: Source: dictionary.reference.com/search?q=atheismIf you honestly buy into this doctrine, then you believe that there is no God. You believe this to be truth. If you don't believe that as a fact or believe that there may be a God, I would not label myself as an atheist. Bottom line John, my opinion of Atheists and atheism is irrelevant in this case. My statements were based on what these two groups generally believe, and with that, I rest my case. My point was that you have the wrong idea of what atheists generally believe. oh and the definition I have read many times over describes an atheist as one who "denies the existence of god". God - "a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions." An atheist 'knows' that this is not the case.. but an atheist also 'knows' that he knows nothing of the truth. He/She knows that we cannot have this truth. The only thing an atheist 'knows' is that the religions of our world are false. Beyond that .. we generally admit to not knowing the what, how, and whys. Other than scientific information that is. (earths age etc.) |
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Post by H-Zence on Mar 20, 2004 22:59:37 GMT -5
Not sure what you're talking about here. Brought what up?
Precisely. The religions of this world have beliefs. A chief belief in many of them is that there is a deity of some sort, such as the Christian God. If you 'know' that these religions are false, than you in turn 'know' their beliefs are false; thus, you 'know' there cannot be a God.
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Post by Colliohn on Mar 20, 2004 23:22:47 GMT -5
So... what you're saying is Agnostics don't know anything? If Athiests know there isn't a god, and the religions know whatever they know, then Agnostics must not know anything...
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Post by H-Zence on Mar 21, 2004 0:03:53 GMT -5
Heh, that's almost comical.
I didn't say 'every' category of people "knows" the truth; I was referring to Atheists and Christians. Based on what these two groups believe, I don't think I was too far off.
Agnostics are skeptical of the existence of a God, to the best of my knowledge. Therefore, they do not take a side.
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Mar 21, 2004 17:35:46 GMT -5
Not sure what you're talking about here. Brought what up? Precisely. The religions of this world have beliefs. A chief belief in many of them is that there is a deity of some sort, such as the Christian God. If you 'know' that these religions are false, than you in turn 'know' their beliefs are false; thus, you 'know' there cannot be a God. first thing, i'll explain in person typing it would be a pain. Second thing.. the atheist 'knows' that the SPECIFIC doctrines of our world are false, one of the reasons the atheist 'knows' this is because he understands that we cannot know, that we merely *want* ther to be a god. From there an atheist (other than science) will tell you that WE HAVE NO IDEA. which is A. the truth. and B. close to agnosticism. maybe you've had some bad experiences with asshole atheists or something ahah. |
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Mar 21, 2004 17:38:48 GMT -5
Heh, that's almost comical. I didn't say 'every' category of people "knows" the truth; I was referring to Atheists and Christians. Based on what these two groups believe, I don't think I was too far off. Agnostics are skeptical of the existence of a God, to the best of my knowledge. Therefore, they do not take a side. agnostics are not merely skeptical though.. thier chief belief (by definition) is that *it is literally impossible for us to know whether or not there is a god* - the ultimate truth. I would say that using that definition, agnostics would not neccesarily 'take a side' but surely remove themselves from the religions 'side' of things. I am not making any attempt at arguing here, just speaking on agnosticism. |
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Post by H-Zence on Mar 21, 2004 18:01:40 GMT -5
Well, let's see.
Good ol' dictionary dot com says:
So actually, we're both right. You can be Agnostic just as a skeptic, or you can actually believe that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
And that just might be the end of that - unless you have anything to add?
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Post by joelhaldeman on Mar 24, 2004 9:03:30 GMT -5
I have nothing else to add, because I have already attempted to use common reasoning to disprove Joel as well as appealing to human compassion in accepting various sexualities, but obviously he is unwilling to open his mind even a tiny bit in order to understand our points. I take this as a sign that deep down he knows we have valid points and he is scared that if he opens his mind and actually thinks for himself for once then his world might crumble, and god forbid if a bible thumper actually steps off their podium for a minute into the real world. Theres no real point in rehashing our points here because I know that I for one am tired of not having my points considered by him and I am also done with scrolling through bible verses-- if I didnt want to read the bible in the first place, then why would I read it here where the only things being posted by the opposing side are out-dated passages pulled merely to back a bigoted interpretation? btw Joel, the word is "sense," not "sence"... if youre going to try proving a point then at least try to spell some words correctly. Yeah im sorry guys i always forget.... Im close minded for not changing my opinion but nyou are open minded for not changing your opinion. Im closed minded because i believe in the Bible but you are open minded because you believ in your own personal bible. It is so crazy when you guys talk about close mindedness because you all are no different then me. One person refuses to believe in God because he does not see the proof. Another person believes in god because he has seen the how He has affected peoples lives and because he does see proof. Of course the person who does not believe in God is open minded. ou guys are crazy. Check out the defenition of Open-minded You have not been receptive to my ideas. You close them out just as much as i have ever done to you. And yes by the way i have been searching out more information on this topic, i havnt ended with my bible. Aslinne, if you really feel you need to correct my grammer, then please go ahead, but i believe we are here to argue the issue at hand....which isnt grammer now lets all bow down and worship the incredible open minded athiests. wanna sticker? |
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Post by Aislinne on Mar 24, 2004 10:06:55 GMT -5
I challenge you to change my mind. I *am* open to ideas and other beliefs, but you are not going to sway me with subjective proclamations of "Jesus' love."
My mind with only be changed with rationality, which for me doesnt even require actual tangible proof, but rather giving me some objective proof that uses reason, not emotion.
And yes I know that religion is overwhelmingly about emotion not reason, but if you want to change my mind then you have to give me something more than a couple passages from a book (because that is really what the bible is- a book).
We've all given you lengthy analysis of why we think the way we do.... for your argument you tend to just let the passages speak for themselves. *that* is why I claim you are less open minded-- because you dont even listen to our points or offer up anything that resembles a valid counterpoint.
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Post by Colliohn on Mar 24, 2004 20:41:21 GMT -5
I'm open-minded because I think for myself and am open to other ideas so long as they are not bogus.
You call me close minded because I don't convert to Christianity? At least my reasons for not being Christian weren't given to me by others: I chose to be an atheist based on all sorts of information that I obtaine by opening my mind to all the options and all the alternatives. It was my open-mindedness which led me from my Christian upbringing to what I do (and don't) believe now. Just because I am set in my current beliefs does not make me close-minded.
If by close-minded you mean I don't believe what you believe? Then sure, by that definition I am close-minded. By the actual definition though, which you provided, I am far more open-minded than you: have you ever thought about converting to another religion? I've pondered many religions, mostly Budhism and other religions similar in their lack of strict guidelines and beliefs. Researching and considering other religions is the epitimy of receptiveness(part of your definition), next to actually converting to the religion.
And, as I (and others have said before), if this god d00d ever showed himself to us, or we got actual proof of your god's existance, then we would believe what you believe.
You, however, aren't even willing to entertain the possibility that your god doesn't exist.
This is what makes you close-minded, and use open-minded.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Mar 24, 2004 21:22:49 GMT -5
i question God very often and I have read up on other religions. By not believing in God are you not following athiests that went before you? If close minded is following the lead of other people then everyone is close minded. Durring that homosexuality argument the reason i used bible verses was because we were arguing whether or not the BIBLE condons it! WHAT DO YOU EXPECT ME TO USE?  ? I have often questioned God and at some point in my life i made a decision to follow what the Bible teaches. I could have just as easily choosen not to follow the same path. Durring the entire creation vs evolution debate you always put your faith into science, how is that different then me putting my faith in the bible. Science does have errors |
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Mar 25, 2004 21:05:20 GMT -5
Yeah im sorry guys i always forget.... Im close minded for not changing my opinion but nyou are open minded for not changing your opinion. Im closed minded because i believe in the Bible but you are open minded because you believ in your own personal bible. It is so crazy when you guys talk about close mindedness because you all are no different then me. One person refuses to believe in God because he does not see the proof. Another person believes in god because he has seen the how He has affected peoples lives and because he does see proof. Of course the person who does not believe in God is open minded. ou guys are crazy. Check out the defenition of Open-minded You have not been receptive to my ideas. You close them out just as much as i have ever done to you. And yes by the way i have been searching out more information on this topic, i havnt ended with my bible. Aslinne, if you really feel you need to correct my grammer, then please go ahead, but i believe we are here to argue the issue at hand....which isnt grammer now lets all bow down and worship the incredible open minded athiests. wanna sticker? Stop assuming that we only "decided" not to believe in god because we don't see proof. For ones who search it out, we aren't just in need of proof of your religion but we have what we'd call proof against it, but this isnt really my point. My strongest stance against your religion and any is purely a logical, built-through-thinking one. I've read yes, and that aids me in my disbelief as well as distaste for christianity. oh and as for that last line, *generally* the average atheist/agnostic is much more open minded than the average christian. Denying this is an act of retardation. .. call me immature. You see you have already decided that you know exactly what happened, how it happened, and that your saved. We acknowledge that the possiblities are *literally* endless, and that we are in no way safe, or guaranteed anything, we haven't served ourselves comfort and reassurance on a platter as religion's followers have. Religion is like a self help program for the broken and beaten, for the follower in every person. It doesn't help, it destroys, it rapes. Before anyone says it, yes, I do realize that for the most part atheists "know" christianity is not correct. What you have to understand is the fact that beyond this, the door is wide open. We are here to live our lives as happily as possible, without persectution, Tv shows telling us how bad hell is or watching a bunch of sheep feed off of eachother's emotional needs as some *Ignorant to his own doctrine* preacher jumps up and down yelling jebus's name after touching someone in dire need of *any* form of support. We are here to live in a country where we can go to a PUBLIC school and not have to hear about religion, not have it shoved in our faces by assholes who simply won't leave it alone. We are here to build a country where the delusional no longer make second class citizens of the rational. This ranting is out of place, but I'm not going to make some new topic for it. bye bye |
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Mar 25, 2004 21:18:37 GMT -5
i question God very often and I have read up on other religions. By not believing in God are you not following athiests that went before you? If close minded is following the lead of other people then everyone is close minded. Durring that homosexuality argument the reason i used bible verses was because we were arguing whether or not the BIBLE condons it! WHAT DO YOU EXPECT ME TO USE? ? I have often questioned God and at some point in my life i made a decision to follow what the Bible teaches. I could have just as easily choosen not to follow the same path. Durring the entire creation vs evolution debate you always put your faith into science, how is that different then me putting my faith in the bible. Science does have errors following the lead of other atheists? bhahahaha. Which one? who? There are no big time atheists for us to follow their lead to begin, but furthermore what? Do you think we one day stumbled onto an atheistic site and decided we wanted to emulate the guy that was writing? Or maybe we just think its cool to be different. Who knows, I mean it is In to be an atheist now a days isnt it, satan must be hard at work. I've never understood the logic of the christian concerning this. Instead of thinking "well (insert atheist) has come to developed opinons and conclusions based on what he has gathered from experiences, beliefs, and information to become a non believer" instead christianity says "a monster that lives in the pit of a place called hell which is constantly on fire and burning who has large horns and is the epitome of evil is working and living inside of his body, thats why he is an atheist." I stopped beliving in monsters quite a while ago, personally. I stopped believing in santa clause, the easter bunny, and the tooth fairy too. You see these characters offer us things, they offer us things we want. But the things that the characters listed off us aren't intensley important, or vital to our state of mind, happiness, and so on. So when we are either told, or realize how utterly ridiculous that these characters are we find that it was quite funny of us to believe in them in the first place. We let go. Religion's gods are EXACTLY the same as these characters. You know what the difference is? God gives us something humans do need, very much so, they need assurance in an afterlife, they need comfort in *knowing* they will be whisked away to a better place when they die. People simply cannot function without this. Thus, no matter HOW ridiculous the stories are, no matter HOW many times the book contradicts all of the logic we are taught as kids (ie monsters don't exist etc), no matter how utterly stupid it is to believe these things as fact, we do. We simply cannot let go of what the god/religion gives us. I guarantee the next statement is true. If the christian god were to only offer a gift on one december day, or candy on easter. instead of eternal paradise and such... yet EVERYTHING else remained the same, NO ONE would be following the religion. It would not be taken seriously because the objects to be obtained and rewarded with are merely candy/presents. Things we can live without. Without heaven and hell, without being 'saved' no one would follow christianity. It is a bogus, ridiculous religion that would be long ago lost from our serious minded thought processes. Its all about what we can get for our cynical little selves, Death is a scary thing, and christianity relieves the fear induced by such a departure from all things we know. |
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Post by joelhaldeman on Mar 25, 2004 21:19:02 GMT -5
well i guess im close minded then, so why do you bother arguing with me if im so close minded
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