|
Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Mar 19, 2004 21:37:06 GMT -5
If you're truly in search of truth and are not sure of what it is, you are agnostic. Most people, atheists, Christians, Jews, or any other religions, aren't looking for the truth: they already "know" it. You have a biased, and INACCURATE opinion of atheists. Stop.
|
|
|
Post by joelhaldeman on Mar 19, 2004 22:34:18 GMT -5
i repeated my argument because it was not answered, read through the bible and you will find the same thing over and over again, "....husband and wives..." Everytime they speak of marriage they speak of a man and a woman. I do not see wjhere there is any room for controversy. You tryed to argue some verses but you were wrong. Lev 18:22 has nothing to do with prostitution. Its loud and clear "do not lie with man as you lie with woman, it is detestible" Go do some reasearch on how much work goes into interpreting the Bible, it is overlook by many many many people who know hebrew and greek. If they think they are wrong they ask other people. They have made a revision on the new international version in 1983 becausse people told them where they miss translated and they fixed it. The people who translate the bible come from all types of different denominations. They translate it without bias, they convert it right to english so it makes sence. You can argue this all you want but the fact is, copy one of those greek or hebrew phrases down and take it to someone who has studied the language and they will tell you what it means. And i can assure you that i am right.
|
|
|
Post by joelhaldeman on Mar 19, 2004 22:35:36 GMT -5
You have a biased, and INACCURATE opinion of atheists. Stop. boy if i were to say that about christians i would get torn apart. i guess christians are the only close minded people in the world................ [glow=red,2,300]...[/glow]
|
|
|
Post by Colliohn on Mar 19, 2004 22:43:11 GMT -5
the bible is not homophobic in any way. The bible does not condemn homosexuals. It states that homosexuality is a SIN. Homosexuals are no worse then people who steal, people who lie and people who cheat. Oh? If the bible doesn't condemn gays, what exactly does it do? Last time I checked, saying something was 'detestable' or that it was a sin (meaning it would cause someone to go to hell), it was condemnation of a person who did the sin.
|
|
|
Post by joelhaldeman on Mar 19, 2004 22:49:38 GMT -5
no someone can be gay and still go to heaven, its no worse then any other sin, in gods eyes all sins are equal. detestible means that god hates that sin, but then again god hates all sin. when i lie to someone he is equally angry as when 2 gay guys have sex.
i found this quote on this website where people talk about the issue of homosexuality.....
|
|
|
Post by joelhaldeman on Mar 19, 2004 22:53:18 GMT -5
this whole debate is just a big circle because i interpret the bible different then you, most likely.
I believe the bible is free from error and the writers were inspired by god when the wrote it. i believe the bible should be interpreted as literal as possible modern translations do have errors because they have been translated by people not inspired by god although they go through so much work translating that i feel safe putting my trust in it
the people who believe homosexuality is not a sin interpret the bible very differently, they believe the writers were writing to people in their own time and it does not apply today. they believe the people writing the bible are sinful and the stuff they wright is not perfect. they do not believe we should interpret the bible literally at all times
|
|
|
Post by H-Zence on Mar 19, 2004 23:04:33 GMT -5
You have tendency to take things out of context. I said most. Not all. I have to agree with Joel here, John. Do you not have a "biased" and in many cases INACCURATE as you have put it view of Christians? Think.
|
|
|
Post by H-Zence on Mar 19, 2004 23:25:47 GMT -5
I've been pondering this for a few minutes, and I know I'll be required to back myself up on my claims of atheists knowing the truth. So I'll get it out of the way: Colliohn said: I don't believe I'm taking this out of context. As one who admits to being an atheist, he is stating that there is no God - as though it is factual. Definition of atheism: Source: dictionary.reference.com/search?q=atheismIf you honestly buy into this doctrine, then you believe that there is no God. You believe this to be truth. If you don't believe that as a fact or believe that there may be a God, I would not label myself as an atheist. Bottom line John, my opinion of Atheists and atheism is irrelevant in this case. My statements were based on what these two groups generally believe, and with that, I rest my case.
|
|
|
Post by Colliohn on Mar 20, 2004 0:02:12 GMT -5
Hm... technically I wouldn't call my lack of belief in god a belief. I just simply don't believe in a god. Think of it like... I dunno, a pie chart. We all have stuff like School, Job, family, friends, homework, fun stuff, etc... Now, Christians also have a chunk of their pie which is god and Jesus and all that. Atheists simply don't have that part of their pie in much the same way I don't have, say, football in my pie. (I have trouble with putting this kinda stuff in words, cus I tend to think abstract cus I'm just weird that way...) Oh, and Joel... Why do you uphold some parts of Leviticus so highly, yet others you just just throw away? Unless you can point out to me where in the New Testament Jesus is quoted as saying "It's ok to eat pork", I don't wanna see you eating pork. Oh, another Jesus quote I wanna see... you have this stuff about anti-gay stuff in the New Testament, but did Jesus say it? As in, not one of his disciples saying he said it later; but did Jesus actually say anything anti-gay while he was alive?
|
|
|
Post by joelhaldeman on Mar 20, 2004 9:36:21 GMT -5
simply because jesus did not say anything about marriages doesnt mean anything. The words of Jesus' disciples are no less valuable then his own, because the writers were inspired by God.
Many of the laws of leviticus were aimed towards the Jews. The Jews were Gods choosen people and he wanted them to live a life style that is set apart. Somethings such as homosexuality are still relevant today because they are mentioned in the new testiment and towards the gentiles. In the new testiment the jews are given the option of following the 'old law'. Paul tells people if they are to follow the old law then they must follow the entire thing. But if they are not going to follow the old law and traditions then it is fine. The entire letter from Paul titled "Galatians" is to a church who believes in Jesus and is born again but they have turned back to the old law. Im going to go read through it and highlite some of the verse to illustrate this.............................
|
|
|
Post by joelhaldeman on Mar 20, 2004 9:53:09 GMT -5
Okay this is rather long but i think it sums it up pretty well, it is Galatians chapter 3:1-25......
if you dont want to read all it ill put an abrieviated version after it ------------------------------------------------- Galatians 3
Faith or Observance of the Law
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? 6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[1] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."[2] 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[3] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."[4] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[5] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[6] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
The Law and the Promise
15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed,"[7] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[8] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
---------------------------------------------------------
This one is shorter and might be better to read this is galatians 5:1-7 1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. -------------------------------------
and as for the meat thing, paul address this because people were sacrificing animals to the greek Gods and selling the burnt meat in the markets and the corinthians were concerned about whether or not this was right. They were not allowed to eat meat sacrificed to God, but they did not believe in the greek Gods. In corinthians 10:25-26 he says this: "25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."
then there is romans 14:2 which says "One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables"
I think the message here is- in the old testiment everyone was concernd about the law. They were always watching what they ate and if they did work on a certain day and how they cleaned them selves and stuff like that. When Jesus came he said that it was no longer necessary to follow the law to the dot and a more important law is "love god with all your heart and ove your neighbore as yourself" If you do work on the sabath and it is done helping a brother or "loving him" then there is no problem. Jesus illustrated this, i can get you the story if you want. But ahyway the point is when he came some people had strong faith in him and believed and did not follow the old law. Others had weak faith and they believed in jesus but there faith was not strong enough to forsake there old ways.
I hope that made sence
|
|
|
Post by Aislinne on Mar 20, 2004 13:32:08 GMT -5
I have nothing else to add, because I have already attempted to use common reasoning to disprove Joel as well as appealing to human compassion in accepting various sexualities, but obviously he is unwilling to open his mind even a tiny bit in order to understand our points. I take this as a sign that deep down he knows we have valid points and he is scared that if he opens his mind and actually thinks for himself for once then his world might crumble, and god forbid if a bible thumper actually steps off their podium for a minute into the real world. Theres no real point in rehashing our points here because I know that I for one am tired of not having my points considered by him and I am also done with scrolling through bible verses-- if I didnt want to read the bible in the first place, then why would I read it here where the only things being posted by the opposing side are out-dated passages pulled merely to back a bigoted interpretation? btw Joel, the word is "sense," not "sence"... if youre going to try proving a point then at least try to spell some words correctly.
|
|
|
Post by Mike on Mar 20, 2004 14:27:45 GMT -5
12 Reasons Why Gay Marriage Is Wrong:
1. Homosexuality is not natural, much like eyeglasses, polyester, and birth control.
2. Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce children. Infertile couples and old people can't legally get married because the world needs more children.
3. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.
4. Straight marriage will be less meaningful, since Britney Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage was meaningful.
5. Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are property, blacks can't marry whites, and divorce is illegal.
6. Gay marriage should be decided by people not the courts, because the majority-elected legislatures, not courts, have historically protected the rights of the minorities.
7. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.
8. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.
9. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.
10. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why single parents are forbidden to raise children.
11. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. Heterosexual marriage has been around for a long time, and we could never adapt to new social norms like we haven't adapted to things like cars or longer lifespans.
12. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a different name are better, because a "separate but equal" institution is always constitutional. Separate schools for African-Americans worked just as well as separate marriages for gays and lesbians will.
|
|
|
Post by Aislinne on Mar 20, 2004 15:36:15 GMT -5
LOL Mike. All of them are so hilarious-- I especially like the fourth one...
If the religious groups want to take offense at the "devaluing" of marriage, then maybe they should start with the heterosexual marriages that already occur before taking issue with two loving people who want to commit for life but happen to have the same sex. If religious folks truly wanted to sanctify marriage then why not offer counseling for *all* kinds of marriages? I personnally agree that marriage is becoming less serious to people in America, but how does that make a scapegoat out of homosexuality? I say we work at building strong marriages for anyone who wants the committment, rather than thinking outlawing gay marriages will be the end-all solution. hehe, sorry, I didnt mean to put up such a lengthy post... I really just wanted to share a laugh at Mike's good list !
|
|
|
Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Mar 20, 2004 21:47:38 GMT -5
boy if i were to say that about christians i would get torn apart. i guess christians are the only close minded people in the world................ [glow=red,2,300]...[/glow] This has been addresssed before. The MAJORITY of christians are CLOSED MINDED. The MINORITY of christians are OPEN MINDED. The MAJORITY of atheists/agnostics are open minded. The MINORITY of atheists/agnostics are closed minded.
|
|