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Post by FollowTheReaper on May 11, 2004 20:27:34 GMT -5
joel, your last few posts have been obviously very different from the previous ones. either you are attempting to be sarcastic and therefore make fun of non-believers like myself or you have really changed your views. i highly doubt you have changed your views because christians are brainwashed from a very young age and its quite hard to break out of. i was one a believer but through time, experience, and education, i now realize faith is factless garbage invented by the rich and powerfull a few thousand years ago to keep the uneducated poor people in check and to make sure there was no revolution. its quite sad that in this age of science, people could still be oppressed by their faith but i guess stupidity might be genetic and it has been passed down from generation to generation for the last few thousand years. statistics show that religion is on the decline which is quite heart warming for me. its too bad i will probably not see it eliminited in my lifetime. i wish my great great great great grandchildren luck in their more wonderful society where terrorism and war are a mere memory and the word "christian" no longer means anything other that a myth. i guess i am just a dreamer but eventually i do believe this will happen. as long as george bush (another stupid christian) doesnt blow up the world before it can happen.
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Post by Lynnet on May 11, 2004 20:52:39 GMT -5
Well sirs: As I am not acquainted with you all I will address you in general. First, to the man with the "new" pledge -- that and your song are entirely reminiscent of the French Revolution. They looted churches and proclaimed a new religion: the religion of L'Etre, the Supreme Being, the light of Reason. It was the high-water mark of humanism, of man becoming all the he can, creating a perfect society on earth. Of expelling all the ancient myths of religion. Of changing society according to our expectations. It was also the time of the guillotine. When they denied that Satan was personal and God was real, every man became a god and every neighbor was his satan. Thousands were sent to be executed because they either disagreed with the authorities or were of the wrong social class. Every moral being relative (in a humanistic setting, it is), they were free from the restrictive bounds of God and accountability and were free to purge their new society of the unworthies. I could go on. Before anyone can deny the faith of the Christian, he must first explain what his is. The Christian stands on a firm empirical historical basis of faith, of divine revelation confirmed through miraculous events, from the resurrection to the foretelling of prophecy. It is stamped with the blood of martyrs and sealed with the judgments of God. This is my faith, and this is what I stand on. What is the faith of humanism, and what does it stand on? It did little for the unworthies in the French Revolution. Well, first of all I'm a woman Secondly, I'll just explain my stance as far as I understand it, to this point at least. I find John Lennon's words to be a quite pleasing picture, however idealistic. It is the kind of world I would like to see, but I know that it is impossible for humans, as "morally flawed" beings to bring about and exist in such a paradise. However, it is our moral flaws, our differences in opinion on any issue, big or small, which give us our individuality, perhaps the most sacred of human qualities. I contend that relative morals, relative perspectives, differences in people's views of the world, are the things which make us human; they do not make us wrong. I am my own worst enemy, I can make or break myself, I can believe what I want, no matter how outrageous it may seem to another being. And yet, I am dependent on a system. A system which can, and will, make me wrong at some point or another. Humans require a system, be it social, governmental, organizational, etc. to flourish. However, if the system makes me wrong far too often, it is not the right system for me. Society is in a constant evolution. It goes through systems over and over, sometimes trying the same basic structure and failing every time, sometimes functioning and flourishing for centuries. But no system ever lasts forever. No system is perfect. Yet. I propose that a perfect system must always be that goal which is just out of reach. You can please some of the people all the time, or all of the people some of the time. (Spin-off of a famous Abe Lincoln quote) This why a perfect system is impossible. However, this does not mean that we should not strive to better our condition and that of future generations. To quote Star Trek now, Data to his android "daughter" Lal..."We must strive to be more than we are, Lal, even if we know we will never attain our goal. It is the effort that counts." The effort of past generations shall always benefit those of the future in some way, and society will build and build, and though stifled by the frequent regressions, it will continue to build and get better. I have faith in history, all of history. I have faith in those who came before us, and those who live now, and those who will live. I have faith that as long as humans (and any other life in this universe) exist, there will be some progression on an eternal, cosmic scale. The universe will move on.
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Post by roninjotatan on May 11, 2004 21:36:46 GMT -5
Its very nice that you two (joelhaldeman and bobarian) stand so firm on your belifs, o wait you dont. Joelhaldeman says he is a sinner and is not perfect and bobarian just attacked Lynnet. So lets address things in some type of order.
joelhaldeman you dont have any idea what your christian faith is. If you did you would relize it has changed so much that if jesus was alive (he died on a cross and stayed dead) he would view you as a blasphamer! Guess what mortals have no right to change what god said but you still do, unless your faith was man made and then you are just being controlled by a human and not a higher power.
bobarian your must a moron insulting some one's motto! how about you open your eye's and relize those anglo saxon bastards have put your mindless faith into every aspect of american life. From the dollor bill to the god damm pledge to our country we cant escape it. I much like the the other womens pledge and would be proud to say it then your christian filled one that rings with the sound of fat cat goverment influrence.
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Post by FollowTheReaper on May 11, 2004 21:44:36 GMT -5
oh yeah, just a little something to add since we are on the topic of pledges and mottos and such. the phrase "under god" was not added to the pledge untill 1953. it was perfectly fine without it for almost 200 years. it was made by people who truly belived in the seperation of church and state but was then defiled by people who only claim to have these same beliefs. chruch, state, school, government... its all run and taught the exact same way. brainwashing from a young age that continues till the say the feeble minded people who fall for it all die. simple as that.
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Post by Lynnet on May 11, 2004 22:10:45 GMT -5
One of the major principles of Christianity, from what I was taught, is that we are all sinners and imperfect. This admission only supports his stance as Christian.
I didn't find Bob's post to be attacking in any way. In fact, I found it quite eloquent and interesting, and I applaud him for it. The French Revolution parallel I had never heard of before, and I was intregued by it.
Additionally, I guess I should explain my pledge a bit.
"I pledge allegiance/to the human race" -- In my view, it is much more worthwhile to dedicate oneself to the good of all humankind, as opposed to the agenda of one country among many such divisions.
"To its promise and its potential" -- Looking toward the future of the world, the progress that will continue to be made on to a better way of life.
"And to the ideals/For which it must stand" -- I believe that while so many things are relative, so many moral codes differ from person to person, there basic things which are integral to the successful peaceful existence of humans with other humans.
"One people" -- We are all one people, one species, one human race; this is undeniable.
"Fair and equal" -- History has proven that lack of equality does not please, that discrimination cannot work.
"With liberty and tolerance for all" -- Equality is key, it does not mean complete control, total equality, lack of individuality. And with the liberty of freedom of thought, opinion, etc, people must learn to be tolerent of those with differing views. They must respect the views of others, whether they agree with them or not.
Anywho, that's my piece for the evening...time to sleep on it.
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Post by FollowTheReaper on May 12, 2004 9:28:16 GMT -5
of course we are all for tolderance, individuality, and equality but from my own personal experience, christianity takes all of that away. it limits peoples lives by standards that were made up thousands of years ago and have little or no relevance today. sure, the moral codes are good. i dont think anyone whould argue with that. but the entire church is corrupt worse than the government (although its hard to distinguish between the two right now). preists are supposed to be the messengers of god but then they rape little boys. is this waht your so called god wants? i would highly doubt it. also, jesus was supposed to be humble but the church is the most money hungry institution to ever exist. i can ramble on forever but i have a 10 page paper due in a few days that needs to be started. all im saying is that through time, the church has become obsolete but its opressive nature still reigns strong. someday everyone will understand and think back to these times and say to themselves "what the hell were we thinking?" but its unfortunate that the evolution of the human mind is excrutiatingly slow.
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Post by bobarian on May 12, 2004 14:42:38 GMT -5
Lynnet - insightful reply. I will spill my piece below.
As a rule, I do not respond to ad hominem comments. However, I will say this. I will not answer to any accusations on the part of government action in relation to Christianity. Nor is Christianity an Anglo-Saxon religion. It is an Eastern religion. I will only talk about Jesus Christ (the man-God) when it comes to religious beliefs. Thank you.
Lynnet -
I do not need (and it would be futile) to get into an argument about history, so I'll just say what I think since you did such a good job of explaining what you believe.
In my view, the reason I am a Christian is that in the sum total of human experience there is fundamentally something lacking. The greatest achievement, the highest goal, the greatest person, all lack something. (I think you said everyone is "flawed"?) This "thing" that we all lack (as Paul said in Acts, the "Unknown God") is a Romance.
A Romance in the sense of a relationship and a state of being. We are born into this world naked, and naked we depart. Yet it is not only our bodies that are stripped of everything, but also our souls. We thirst for a Person, a relationship that we were born for yet are unable to have. As I said earlier, man becomes god if he does not have God. Before the world history we are familiar with there was Something else. It was a beautiful story of man and God, and it was the perfect Romance. It was a story of love and adventure, of mutual understanding and creativity of the highest level. It is described wholly in the book of Genesis.
When we ate the apple, (again, to become "like God"), we gave up that sacred romance for a lesser substitute -- ourselves. Therefore, the first and primary feeling we all share in life is loneliness, although we are surrounded by thousands millions and billions of people.
Jesus came to reclaim us, to restore us to this relationship, this Romance. He basically was killed to bring His beloved back to Himself -- and to enter into a new dawn of blessing, of a totally New Man (the Resurrection).
As we are all God's creation, we are all given the chance to enter in. Thus fundamentally what I believe in is a fairy tale. It acknowledges human beings as they are yet it also includes absolute evil and absolute good.
The difference is, this fairy tale is true.
Acknowledging that human beings are flawed (yet have a great potential, a remnant of something terribly good) is an observation central to what I'm trying to say. The key is where does this observation lead to - human society, or God Himself. It is only in God that man's desire for Romance (for the echo of real love) can be found. Hence the cross is both horrible in the death of an innocent man and wonderful in that in brought both lover and beloved back together.
I find it interesting that after God created the earth, the first thing he did was "bless" it. It is this blessing that now is being restored to mankind, to all "who have received Him." It is about the God who is there.
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Post by joelhaldeman on May 12, 2004 16:47:33 GMT -5
well i wasnt trying to be sarcastic i was just trying to be honest. Durring our vacation from posts i started reading some different books. And as it turns out you guys are right. I was brainwashed. I am brainwashed. Im not sure if i should regret growing up in a church which treated jesus in such a way and turned all us little kids into sin fearing, sinner hating jerks. Jesus was reduced to this flannel board wimp with golden brown hair and a lamb in his right arm. Im sick and tired of "religious right" and republican propaganda in the church. Im sick and tired of christianity as a whole. I fully understand why so many of you hate religion, most likely for the same reason i hate it. I hate christianity. I hate what it is. I hate how it rapes boys, is money hungry as you say. I hate how it is filled with republican propoganda. I hate how it teaches you to stay away from culture and to put a bumper sticker on your car that says "liberals are the devil." Im sick and tired of bush killing Iraqis in the name of his God. Jesus told me durring his sermon on the mount to "love your enemy and bless those who persecute you." I hate how its outragous to take words like that from jesus and ask if he was being literal. (I think he was) Im sick of rich christians, just doesnt seem right to me. I want to love jesus and i want to love other people. I want to do this without an agenda. I want to love people for the sake of loving them not fopr the sake of getting them to believe the same thing as me. As i read the words of Jesus I dont find him saying "Go make everyone agree with you" I find him saying "love others" "give them your money, give them your possesions, give them your attention and your love" Im really tired of christians being defensive about their faith, as i always am. Christians are afraid to be wrong. I have been trained all my life to defend my faith, never explore my faith. I guess thats what im doing. Exploring my faith, finding there is more then "christianity". Im trying to change but it wont happen over night.
That is why i appologise, because your right. And I have totally missed the point of what Jesus said. I dont want to be a "christian" any more. I want to have faith in Jesus and i want to follow what he said and did.
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Post by FollowTheReaper on May 12, 2004 17:29:04 GMT -5
i congratulate you joel. i believe you are on the right path. while i still dont agree with faith, i am very pleased to learn that you have discovered what a terrible and corrupt institution the church and religion is. im also glad to hear that you see how the government is exploiting religion to its fullest extent. i hope everyone who is of legal age to vote is planning on voting bush out of the white house this year. granted, kerry might not be perfect, but hes a big step up from bush. hell... a pet rock is a step up from bush.
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Post by H-Zence on May 12, 2004 18:38:28 GMT -5
H-Zence's "Random Interjection" for the Day
Joel, I'm very pleased to have read that. I'm also honored that you've chosen to admit that on a board where, for months on end, you alone defended your faith and religion. I'm glad you've come to realize that you can practice the teachings of the bible, including loving Jesus, and still recognize the problems with the Church.
This is a break through for you. You can go any direction from here. You can step into the Christian faith as an improved man. You can choose to think outside of your faith, as I chose to. You can even choose to forget religion altogether (although I frankly do not recommend it). What's important is that you take your time and have your priorities straight through the whole process - and I say process because you're right. It won't happen overnight. But in the end I think you'll have found it worthwhile.
To All Lurkers
I'm also pleased with Joel's post for another reason. In witnessing this break through, I can see that this website is serving its purpose. I hope it can do the same for others - not just Joel. So if you've been lurking lately but haven't taken the time to log in, I encourage you to do so and give your thoughts on this whole thing.
Thanks.
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Post by bobarian on May 12, 2004 20:13:01 GMT -5
Hmmm.
Let me clarify a few things.
The church (Christian church) is not a horrible institution. It is responsible for reforming the decadent Roman society, starting (and developing) the modern philosophic and scientific movements, championing humanitarian causes on the earth, and leading to the most fair and balanced government this world has ever seen. (I can offer much historical support of all these points.)
The Crusades and the Inquisition are blown out of proportion and are certainly not what perception has made them out to be. If anyone wants to discuss this with me, they can.
There are Christians who do not act in accord with the Bible's teachings. However that does not make Christianity a bad religion, nor the Christian church a bad church. To use that logic is to say that since all atheists aren't good atheists, atheism is flawed. I don't buy that.
I am a Christian and I acknowledge the long history of Christians behind me. Christian means "little Christ," and it was a derogatory epithet used by the Romans towards followers of Jesus in the first century. If acknowledging that I am one brings on unjust accusations, then let it be so. Jesus was certainly not treated any differently.
Thank you for llistening.
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Post by joelhaldeman on May 12, 2004 21:12:58 GMT -5
dont count on me losing faith anytime soon, through all this i have been thinking about my faith in jesus and relationship has only been strengthened and deepend
and just to make sure im clear, i dont want to blaim all problems on the church because i am apart of the church and all of that stuff falls on me as well. im not trying to step back and point at the church and say "look what they are doing" i have just come to realize the way a lot of things go down and the way people act including myself and dont think its anything like it was ment to be
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Post by Areopagite on May 12, 2004 21:44:21 GMT -5
As bobarian said, the church (that is, the Christian church) is not a horrible institution. Many great things have come from the church, including (for the so-called "intellectuals") the foundations of universities. Without Christianity, (I can argue before you if you would like me to) Europe and North America would not experience the wealth and affluence it does. And before pointing at that invisible entity "the rich", I'll remind all that this same wealth and affluence is enjoyed by all here. We all have running water, electricity, telephones, televisions, cars, and obviously computers within our households.
Economics aside though, other points have been risen on this thread that I find more than disconcerting. For example, Joel you say:
"I hate christianity. I hate what it is. I hate how it rapes boys, is money hungry as you say."
You seem to indicate that it is Christianity that rapes boys. I'm not sure how you have connected this, honestly. Christianity has not raped little boys. Priests certainly have, but Christianity has not. What they did is despicable, and the Bible clearly cries out against it.
And if I may point out to you Joel, I seriously doubt that there are many others on this message board who seriously wish for you to find "another teaching of Christ". It would seem, from what I have read at least, that some would be happy for you to denounce Jesus Christ all together.
Also, Joel, you comment that:
"Im not sure if i should regret growing up in a church which treated jesus in such a way and turned all us little kids into sin fearing, sinner hating jerks"
as well as:
"I want to love jesus and i want to love other people"
You seem to regret that Christianity teaches to hate sin yet you wish to also love the Jesus of the Bible. Take to heart 1 John 2:3-6 then:
"3 By this we know that we have come to Know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought to walk in the same manner as He walked"
Jesus hated sin, as should all the believers, for sin is what brings an eternal death (Romans 6:23) and separation from God. Any "gospel" that teaches a christianity other than this, true Christianity, is a false gospel.
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Post by FollowTheReaper on May 12, 2004 22:15:46 GMT -5
Areopagite, you say "What they did is despicable, and the Bible clearly cries out against it." this may be true but how can you use that as a defense when the pope himself covered up these horrific acts for decades? he knew what was going on and did nothing. and the punishment for the ones who get caught!?!?! they get moved to another church. sorry but that has to be the stupidest thing the church has ever done. i think their idea that the earth was the center of the universe (which they were obviously wrong about) was a better idea than moving a child raping pedophile to another location to get fresh meat. this is probably the main reason i hate religion as much as i do. they have some of the most scummy people in existance working in thier establishment and they seem not to care. in fact, they seem to say its perfectly fine by covering it up. and the fact that the pope himself covered it up is disgraceful. if i could spit on him, i would. sorry to be so offensive but i really cant take the bullshit that the church spews out on a regular basis.
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Post by Areopagite on May 13, 2004 14:14:40 GMT -5
Well FollowTheReaper, I agree with you. All of those priests should be sent to jail, not moved around. I have as much disgust at that as you do, I think. I'm not a Roman Catholic, so I don't honestly have any respect for the Pope's "authority". But as head of the Roman Catholic Church, he certainly should have taken different actions in response to those priests. I certainly don't have faith in the Roman Catholic Church leadership, or doctrines, for that matter, since several are not biblical in the least.
If I am reading what you write in your posts correctly, it seems that you are confusing the "the church" with the Roman Catholic Church. When I use the term "the church", I am referencing the universal church that belongs to Jesus Christ. This consists of all Christians, not a denomination. Not all who attend a church are Christians either, keep that in mind.
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