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Post by joelhaldeman on Sept 2, 2004 20:07:22 GMT -5
i have never read an instance in the bible where God allows satan to be omnipresent or omnicient or omnipotent, maybe you have.
I never said that, I said that I believe satan is not everywhere at once. I do not think that everytime I sin satan is tempting me. You can sin without the help of satan, check out James chapter 1. -msg
and no i am not making this up on the spot, i have thought about this before because it is so annoying when people say that satan is controling their life, satan made me lose my job, satan is in pokemon, satan is in star wars, satan is in the X when people say X-mas. Satan is a created being just like every other angel, he does not have a huge amount of power in fact the biggest power he has is the ability to lie. He is called the father of lies. He doesnt need to wisper in my ear for me to sin, I am a sinful person by birth, I can do it on my own, trust me
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 2, 2004 20:40:50 GMT -5
God needn't allow Satan to be omniscient or omnipresent to influence you, or anyone else for that matter. This is irrelevant. You said earlier yourself that God is able to manipulate the amount of freedom Satan has, and I was just pointing out that it's entirely possible that this could happen at any time, so you have no basis to claim that he's not influencing you.
My NIV Study Bible has these words for the verses you quoted:
"(13) When tempted, no-one should say, "God is tempting me". For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; (14) but each one is tempted when, by his (sic) own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. (15) Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full grown, gives birth to death. "
I concede that verse 14 does say that the evil desire is one's own, but I also draw attention to the fact that your translation seems to place hugely disproportionate emphasis on this aspect. Yours, for example, says that "we have no-one to blame but... our own lust", and whereas mine does not say anything about self-blame (sounds fairly unfair to me). Also, if "...temptation...comes from us and only us", this does not allow AT ALL for Satan tempting people! I think your translation is a bit dodgy there!!!
Maybe get a new Bible. O, how utterly riddled with contradiction your Bible seems to be.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Sept 2, 2004 20:46:54 GMT -5
okay lets use the NIV
"by his own evil desire"
PS i have an NIV i just used the message because i thought it explained it best. in reality they say the same thing
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 2, 2004 21:40:06 GMT -5
okay lets use the NIV "by his own evil desire" PS i have an NIV i just used the message because i thought it explained it best. in reality they say the same thing Quoting myself: "I concede that verse 14 does say that the evil desire is one's own" -I have already acknowledged this, Joel. Why don't you address the other parts of my post? And, for the record, as I previously demonstrated, NO, IN REALITY THEY DO TEXTNOT TEXT "say the same thing" - yours is clearly contradictory! Why don't you read what you're replying to?!
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jk
Novice
Posts: 84
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Post by jk on Sept 5, 2004 0:38:10 GMT -5
You are both people who seem to be believing in the message that the bible conveys, but my question is how can you believe in something that you admit is differnt from version to version. How can you believe in something if there is so much controversy about what is being said?
James 1:14,15 International CHildren's Bible "14 It is the evil that a person wants that temps him. His own evil desire leads him away and holds him. 15 this desire causes sin. Then the sin grows and brings death" Okay this is a childrens version but this is what children would then be learning
Today's English Version "14 But we are tempted when we are drawn away and trapped by our own evil desires. 15 Then our evil desires concieve and give birth to sin;and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death" Not all to different from the children's version then again i did get this bible in fourth grade.
King James "14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath concieved, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death"
I wish i had my "college" bible with me but it is at college currently and im not sure what for version that thing is though. But after writing it all out it seems to be putting the blame on man and his own evil/lust. It seems to be saying to me that you dont have to be under satan's power to be sinning. We are perfectly capable of doing that on our own.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Sept 5, 2004 1:11:00 GMT -5
every single version that has been quoted says the same thing. A man is tempted by his own sinful desire
some translations are more accurate then others, you can find a list without to much work
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 5, 2004 3:50:54 GMT -5
I concede that verse 14 does say that the evil desire is one's own, but I also draw attention to the fact that your translation seems to place hugely disproportionate emphasis on this aspect. Yours, for example, says that "we have no-one to blame but... our own lust", and whereas mine does not say anything about self-blame (sounds fairly unfair to me). Also, if "...temptation...comes from us and only us", this does not allow AT ALL for Satan tempting people! I think your translation is a bit dodgy there!!! My comments on different Bible translations were simply in relation to Joel's Bible. I agree that this verse is saying that we can have our own evil desires (innate) (already acknowledged). You must admit, though, that the word "blame" in Joel's translation has different implications for these "evil desires" - I don't consider it fair to blame oneself for something which is innate. In other words, Joel, I don't agree with you that they all say "the same thing", because they don't all MEAN exactly the same thing. No matter how small the difference in meaning, it's still a flaw in what is supposed to be God's changeless word. jk - I am in extreme agreement with you when you say "How can you believe in something if there is so much controversy about what is being said?". This is an illustration of the Bible's sloppiness and capacity to be translated in all sorts of ways. And don't give me the old "fallible man stuffing it up" argument, as God would have known this ambiguity would occur and would never have been so silly as to allow it. Unless, of course, there were meant to be different interpretations (in which case, no-one can say the Bible truly condemns specific acts such as abortion, etc.)
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Post by joelhaldeman on Sept 6, 2004 15:31:52 GMT -5
God never said the english translations would be perfect
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Post by Satori on Sept 6, 2004 16:59:55 GMT -5
God never said the english translations would be perfect I'd have thought God would be good at languages; after all it was His idea with Babel!
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 7, 2004 3:04:21 GMT -5
God never said the english translations would be perfect Actually, yes, He did. This is the absolute problem I believe exists in the Bible if it is God's word. Proverbs 30:5 "Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in him." Malachi 3:6 "I the Lord do not change. So you, O the descendents of Jacob, are not destroyed." James 1:17 "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, whom does not change like shifting shadows." Isaiah 40:8 "The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever." 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" Psalms 89:34 "I will not violate my covenant or alter what my lips have uttered." So, if the Bible has been changed over time (which it has), it violates its own words.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Sept 7, 2004 20:40:24 GMT -5
Im sorry maybe you wernt paying attention....
"God never said the english translations would be perfect " Allow me to highlight something "God never said the english translations would be perfect " Now one more time in case you missed it "God never said the english translations would be perfect "
now lets ask ourselves, what language was the wrod of God writen in? Does the Bible claim to be inspired? YES Does God say the translators would be inspiried? NO According to what you are saying I could buy a bible and write in the margines and suddenly that is inspired
ridiculous? Yes
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 7, 2004 23:36:47 GMT -5
Sorry, Joel, but if you consider the English Bible to be God's word (which I think you must if you believe there can possibly be english-speaking Christians; otherwise they would not be reading "God's Word"), then all the verses I previously provided apply as I have applied them.
Also, I don't consider it in the least valid to say that God's flawless word is only available in certain languages - this would violate the need for God to communicate equally with all people.
I think you are insulting your God to claim that he is not expected to keep his word changeless over time. If you believe that the first men to write the Bible wrote it perfectly and you consider them inspired, but don't believe the translators were inspired, then why did God not protect His sacred word? And why are there all those verses in the Bible about it being changeless and perfect? I have always read them as referring to the reliability of scriptural texts. You are contradicting these verses.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Sept 8, 2004 0:07:47 GMT -5
No the english version is not Gods word. It is a rewriten form of Gods word. It does not say the exact same thing. If you take a tape with something recorded that sounds very very good and copy it to another tape. then you take that copy and copy it. Then take that copy and copy it again. Do this for about 20 times and tell me if the tape still sounds the same. If you say the 20th recording sounds bad are you making fun of what was recorded on the origional? Of course not, the reason it sounds bad does not lie in the origional but the fact that it has been copied so many times.
Here is a situation that happens all the time. Math. People do math all the time. They write math formulas and rewrite them and they are put into computer programs. When a computer program doesnt work perfectly or a math problem doesnt work out, do you blame math? NO. You blame the person who copied it or rewrote it.
Im insulting my God? You are the one saying he is a liar. I am calling Him true to his word. Which by the way his word doesnt change. People change it, that doesnt make him less perfect, that doesnt change his word, all it means is that people arnt perfect at recreating it.
Ever play whisper down the lane? What happens at the end? The origional thing spoken is different then what is at the end. Does that make the person in the begining wrong? Of course not. It means that something was lost when it was being translated from one person to the next.
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 8, 2004 1:10:48 GMT -5
No the english version is not Gods word. I guess this is really the crux of the argument. But I must repeat (please see my post one previous to this) that, if this is true, it presents a FUCKING MASSIVE problem to Christianity. If the English version is NOT God's word, then what is to become of all us English-speaking Christians? If we do not even HAVE God's Word, how can anyone ever trust anything that they learn in English-speaking churches? If you do not have God's word, how can you call yourself a Christian? As I said, "Also, I don't consider it in the least valid to say that God's flawless word is only available in certain languages - this would violate the need for God to communicate equally with all people." If God said His word would never change, what else could He have possibly meant by this other than its translations?
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 8, 2004 1:13:02 GMT -5
--Might I add; you're up late! Don't feel you have to answer my posts as soon as they're up - we all need our sleep!
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