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Post by H-Zence on Jun 3, 2004 22:09:26 GMT -5
Bob, Would you please have a look at www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions . These statistics are as of 2000 and no doubt have changed, but not much. According to that: - 76.5% of the U.S. Population is Christian. - Only 13.2% of the population claim to have no affiliation. The mere fact that someone is bitter toward Christianity or Christians does not mean that they are bitter towards God. If I may quote Gandhi, "I like your Christ; it is your Christians that I wonder about." You are also saying that non-believers are unwilling to acknowledge the fact they are closed minded. Bob, who actually BELIEVES that they are closed minded? It is my opinion that atheists are not "in denial." They ACTUALLY believe they know what's right. Just like you. Perhaps it is the Christians who are unwilling to acknowledge being closed-minded?
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Post by joelhaldeman on Jun 4, 2004 23:06:59 GMT -5
I think its understandable that people are bitter towards christianity. So much of what is preached is not lived out. When someone thinks of a church they do not think of a group of loving, kind, accepting, graceful people, they generally think of a group of Holier than thou. There are many people who would love to know Jesus and what he truely offerend and the way he truely lived and ignore this christianity that exists today
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Post by joelhaldeman on Jun 5, 2004 12:19:00 GMT -5
im pretty closed minded
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Post by Satori on Jun 5, 2004 15:29:12 GMT -5
While I, too, John, see much immorality in America -- if they do not know Jesus Christ, than there is no point in trying to define their religiosity. It is entirely fake. That is entirely incorrect bobarian. They simply choose a different way. I do not 'know' Jesus Christ in the way you mean, yet I feel my spiritual understanding at least equal to yours. The difference is that I don't call your undertandings 'fake'. I'm prepared to be tolerant of different paths. Maybe that's where Christians fall so very short, even in this day and age.
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Post by Lynnet on Jun 6, 2004 19:28:16 GMT -5
Precisely. That's a big part of why I left Christianity -- the unbearably low level of tolerence to other views, those which hypothesize that perhaps there is more than one "way, truth, and light."
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Jun 10, 2004 14:38:34 GMT -5
Let me be equally as blunt: America is not a Christian country. To say so is tomfoolery. Yes, it was founded on Christian morals, yes, our judicial system still abides by those principles, but no, the majority of people in America are not Christian. I agree with most of that. But our judicial system does not abide by christian laws/morals... but more so the standards of common logic. Do you some how believe that the ten commandments weren't influenced by previous civilization's moral standards? TO me this is obvious as the commandments themselves can be conclusions come to by anyone trying to have a society run smoothly. Let me be equally as blunt: While I, too, John, see much immorality in America -- if they do not know Jesus Christ, than there is no point in trying to define their religiosity. It is entirely fake. It has nothing to do with their free-thinkingness, it has to do with their heart, which is very hard towards God, closed off and bitter. Entirely fake? heh, I guess I can expect that coming from a christian. Does anyone else get a kick out of each group of people within each tunnel vision stricken region of the world *KNOWING* for a *FACT* that their religion is right and all others are merely either wrong, or products of satan? I say everything you or anyone else worships is entirely fake. I don't pick one that *fits my needs* the best, nor do I select the one that the most people in my country believe in. I know all religious superstition as falsehoods and products of flawed, cowardice filled human minds. The product of fear, fear of the unknown, fear of death, fear of being alone. Let me be equally as blunt: It is the same problem you and I deal with, if we are willing to acknowledge this before God. Isn't time you came to that point too? The world is full of pain, bitterness, anger and sorrow. Only in the cross is reality re-made and undone forever. You don't understand. I will never "come to that point" and acknowledge what you've written "before god". This is not because I am rebellious, but because I do not believe in that which you claim I am rebelling against. Further, if the bible was true, - which is really impossible considering the conflictions in character descriptions and character actions - I would still refuse to bow before this malevolent, hypocritical god so many mindlessly worship.. worshiping not for pleasure or out of love for this character, but rather for self benefit, to appease the fears that eat at human beings every day, to fit into societies mold, to remove the instense loneliness that can be felt without propor acknolwedgement and involvement in our loving fellow man. It is within eachother that we draw strength and express compassion, true comradary conquers all standing in the path of happiness and self contentment.
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Post by bobarian on Jun 14, 2004 22:15:32 GMT -5
I shall reply to everyone in turn. First, H-Zence (Steve), Your statistics only refer to what people claim themselves to be. If Christianity were Islam, in which all one must do to become an adherent is to say a certain thing, it would be perfectly normal to say that such people who claim to be Christians are Christians. But the Bible is explicitly clear that such people are not. Paul talks of a "new creation," a transformation of the person. Being a Christian is not something that involves a change of adherence to certain doctrines, for "even the demons believe that Jesus is Lord -- and shudder." It is the creation of a new person who is at peace with God through Jesus' blood. A nominal Christian (in name only) is no Christian at all, because to be a Christian obviously means that one must identify with Christ. And this is impossible without real heart change. In addition, Augustine's words apply in considering a certain faith or religion: decide not by the people who are not following its commands. Ravi Zacharias adds, but by the founder. Judge Christianity on the basis of Jesus (who He was and how He lived) -- not on the basis of Joe Shmoe "I consider myself a Christian" who lives next door. He's the only one with the answers -- and the only one who can save you. Joe Shmoe, can't. That said, our country is obviously dominated by an intellectual elite that is decidedly humanist and quite secular. What our society considers "acceptable" is not the Christian message -- just turn on the TV to see what that is. Our country is not Christian, it is anti-Christian in many ways. I do not know of a religious group more humiliated regularly on comedy shows and the like than evangelical Christians. If some of the stereotypes and epithets applied to them were applied to Jewish people, the show would never be aired. But all men are not created equal in a humanist secular world. "It is within eachother that we draw strength and express compassion, true comradary conquers all standing in the path of happiness and self contentment." John - which would you have it -- either all Christians and all religious-believing people (at least 5/6ths of the world's population) are "products of flawed, cowardice filled human minds. The product of fear, fear of the unknown, fear of death, fear of being alone," or there is "within eachother" the "path of happiness and self contentment." Either the vast majority of the world's population are followers of their own cowardice, or they are all living together in mutual harmony and fellowship. Quite simply, if religion is the problem, and most people believe in religion, then how could you also say that our best hope lies in mankind? Christ is the truth. It is through Him that the answers to life are found. And all may come to Him, He stands open-armed at the entrance to an eternal life that is what we were meant to be. "The God who is there." Amen. Satori - "That is entirely incorrect bobarian. They simply choose a different way. I do not 'know' Jesus Christ in the way you mean, yet I feel my spiritual understanding at least equal to yours. The difference is that I don't call your undertandings 'fake'. I'm prepared to be tolerant of different paths. Maybe that's where Christians fall so very short, even in this day and age." Satori, you just said that my path was "entirely incorrect." You also say that you are "prepared to be tolerant of different paths." It is not plausible to say that all paths are right but that mine is wrong. "Jesus said, I am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me." "I came that they may have life, and have it to the full." "Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." This is the only truth, and it is accessible to all. I know of no flaw in a truth that all can know, even if it by definition excludes all others. I would not be able to love a woman if by definition I did not love all others the same way. Love, and so truth, is purposefully exclusive. Its what brings it life, and life to the full. Jesus calls, but who will answer???
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Jun 15, 2004 1:57:47 GMT -5
Bob, something is wrong with either the boards or my computer and it won't allow me to scroll down when I try to quote your post so i will be replying purely out of what i've memorized from reading through your post.
You asked me how I can put my hope in mankind when I wrote all of those attributes within people that have led to religion's success.
My hope in mankind lies not in how we are as a whole in the present time, but what COULD be.
The 'fellow man' i speak of are my dear friends.. a lot of which share my beliefs and thus this does not become an issue.
You seem to have written a few lines that attempt at making my claims of human characteristics that are responsible for religion's success look unlikely. This really just isn't the case. As Mr. Zindler mentioned in his reply to your critique.. we must observe and value quality, not quanity.
Sure, I can believe that your claimed 5/6 of the world are indeed religious. This is a number I do not doubt in any way. I happen to realize though, that Yes, those people are indeed delusional.. that their religious beliefs (for applicable belief systems) lie in fear, cowardice, and loneliness.
I am unable to really get into this topic right now due to the difficulties I'm having but hopefully this was sufficient.
.. although I do remember something rather ignorant about christ being lord near the end of the post.
(if your going to pray out loud as arrogantly as this, expect the same attitude in return)
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Jun 15, 2004 2:15:01 GMT -5
your comment to satori doesn't make sense.
You can disagree with something yet still TOLERATE IT.
Like satori disagrees with you, yet tolerates you.
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Post by bobarian on Jun 15, 2004 11:34:50 GMT -5
No, John. Satori criticized me for saying that other paths were wrong, but then saying that he tolerates all paths (tolerance meaning acceptance as relative truth). I replied that this was contradictory because my "intolerance" was itself a path, and therefore he could not say it was in itself wrong (using the logical system he set up).
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Post by Lynnet on Jun 15, 2004 19:36:56 GMT -5
Okay, this will probably get confusing, but yeah... first of all: bobarian: Satori: bobarian: One specific view in a multitude of views does not qualify as the entire "path." I think we're confusing tolerance (The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.) with concession (the act of acknowledging, often reluctantly, as being true, just, or proper.) whose opposite is disagreement, or thinking that something is "wrong." Since the core part of Christianity is that "Jesus is the only way," then there is really no way any non-Christian can agree fully with (concede to) this doctrine. However, it is possible to tolerate the religion as a whole through agreeing that many aspects of its teachings are right, while still withholding views against it. The fact that Christianity claims itself to be the only way is what makes it seem so difficult to tolerate, since that is such a core aspect of the religion. However, if one looks past that bit, the teachings of "love your neighbor as yourself" and all the other great lessons which Jesus taught, Christianity has many admirable traits outside its intolerant "you're with us or you're going to hell." bobarian: I think you would agree, though, Bob, that "if they do not know Jesus Christ, than there is no point in trying to define their religiosity. It is entirely fake." So where does their so-called religion come from? And why is it any different from the origins of your own? Please don't say that "devil" character...
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Post by bobarian on Jun 15, 2004 20:38:46 GMT -5
Lynnet - Its so strange that you would mention the devil. Took the words right out of my mouth ;D Seriously, folks, what I said to Satori is quite simply this: The proposition being stated is that Christianity is wrong because it claims to be the only way. Thus by extension the fact that Christianity claims to be the only way is in itself wrong. Thus Christianity is wrong. All paths are correct except the ones that claim to be correct. There is such a thing as the law of noncontradiction. It says (in horrible philosophical jargon) that two contradicting truths cannot both themselves be true. I cannot both be Bob and Bill at the same time, I must be one or the other. The same applies to religion. Either Jesus died on the cross (Christianity) or he didn't (Islam). He couldn't have done both. Toleration just means I won't set you on fire if I disagree with you. That does not change the fact that I disagree with you, that I think that everything you believe is a horrible lie and the only reason you believe that is because you are bent on world domination and the destruction of all human goodness. Ok, so that's actually what I believe , but the same still applies. Toleration does not mean that exclusive truth claims are false. Toleration just means that because someone else thinks you're wrong you won't go and beat them up. Besides, toleration is not a virtue. There are some things that should not be tolerated (such as prisoner abuse in Iraq). But certain things, such as religious views, need to be. In that sense toleration is a Christian idea.
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Jun 16, 2004 1:49:22 GMT -5
But certain things, such as religious views, need to be. In that sense toleration is a Christian idea. I wasn't aware that throwing people into a lake of fire for eternity could be defined as toleration. Spare me the speech, yes.. I have heard them before and argued untill my faced turned blue. No point. "god doesn't send you to hell, you send yourself there"
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Jun 16, 2004 1:50:25 GMT -5
By the way Bob.. I now understand where your reply to satori came from, all is well.
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Jun 16, 2004 1:53:01 GMT -5
Lynnet - Its so strange that you would mention the devil. Took the words right out of my mouth ;D Yeah I mean, why not believe that anyone and everything that disagrees with your superstitious beliefs is motivated, blinded, and/or posessed by a MONSTER with horns who lives in a sea of fire.wow.
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