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Post by bobarian on Jun 16, 2004 11:37:34 GMT -5
Well, John, I'd rather believe that the devil is the devil than that everything is the devil.
Without a personal evil, there really is no evil at all, is there?
Otherwise evil is some abstract value, floating out there in the nothingness. Is there a father of lies, as well as a Father of truth?
Besides, I agree with C.S. Lewis - the world makes the most sense when it is seen as a battle between two opposing sides. Otherwise, you have humanism (atheistic or not), where everything that is, is, (and then why bother complaining about it?), or eastern relativism, where there is no good or evil, and we should all just get along (rather hard to condemn things like the prisoner abuse scandal or the holocaust then). When there is a good and an evil, and both are led by personal beings rather than impersonal forces, then this world makes sense.
Any other system falls apart when it must deal with the extremes of human existence -- pleasure or pain, the quest for satisfaction or the reality of suffering. What can bring all together? Only the cross. It is the only reality available to man, "the only name by which you must be saved."
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Post by Satori on Jun 16, 2004 11:47:38 GMT -5
Satori, you just said that my path was "entirely incorrect." You also say that you are "prepared to be tolerant of different paths." It is not plausible to say that all paths are right but that mine is wrong. I didn't say that your path was 'entirely incorrect' at all; what I said was that this statement was 'entirely incorrect' (in my opinion): " if they do not know Jesus Christ, than there is no point in trying to define their religiosity. It is entirely fake." What I believe is incorrect is the fact that you stated that if ones religion does not know Jesus Christ then it is fake. I cannot agree with that at any level. Christianity is just one path of many. bob, this Bible was written nearly 2000 years ago with a target audience different to us. The world was a different place, cultures were different and the Gospel writers had a point to make. I think the message would be portrayed rather differently today than it was then. I would have expected today's Christians to appreciate such things and extrapolate their message appropriately. I can see that I'm wrong in expecting that though, and it frightens me. The interpretation of the symbolic as the literal and the clinging to a book that was written long ago and is - when all said and done - only the interpretation of a few people about what Jesus meant, is worrying enough. But to then use that to label all other faiths as 'fake' is pretty much the ignorance that has caused so much religious trouble over the ages. I guess you're not going to agree and that, of course, is your right.
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Post by Satori on Jun 16, 2004 12:07:39 GMT -5
or eastern relativism, where there is no good or evil, and we should all just get along (rather hard to condemn things like the prisoner abuse scandal or the holocaust then). LOL, I think you have totally misinterpreted 'Eastern relativism'. Good and evil are relative, but that does not mean you don't condemn and try to stop evil. Ah, how wrong you are. Buddhism works fine for me when it come to the 'reality of suffering'. See, there is another way besides 'The Cross' after all.
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Jun 16, 2004 18:11:49 GMT -5
Well, John, I'd rather believe that the devil is the devil than that everything is the devil. My point was that belief in 'the devil' is ridiculous in the first place. When there is a good and an evil, and both are led by personal beings rather than impersonal forces, then this world makes sense. This world doesn't have to make sense in the first place, if you must create characters that hold attributes setting them apart as good and evil to live your life with a feeling of correctness then so be it.. not all of us however need such a synthetic design. What can bring all together? Only the cross. It is the only reality available to man, "the only name by which you must be saved." Take away the reality part there, and you've made some sense. Religion does cater to our needs and helps set a structure for which we can look to for black and white answers. Unfortunately for followers.. all of this reliance is put into falsehood after falsehood. These 'answers' we recieve never cease to comfort because those who rely on such ideas see themselves as with the righteous.. see themselves as nothing but the opposite of what the bible throws so much hate at (gays, heretics, etc.)... again.. the problem with this lies in that this comfort is a derivitive of something entirely fake. I dream of a society free from this crutch.
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Post by Lynnet on Jun 19, 2004 22:53:37 GMT -5
Well, John, I'd rather believe that the devil is the devil than that everything is the devil. Without a personal evil, there really is no evil at all, is there? Otherwise evil is some abstract value, floating out there in the nothingness. Is there a father of lies, as well as a Father of truth? Besides, I agree with C.S. Lewis - the world makes the most sense when it is seen as a battle between two opposing sides. Otherwise, you have humanism (atheistic or not), where everything that is, is, (and then why bother complaining about it?), or eastern relativism, where there is no good or evil, and we should all just get along (rather hard to condemn things like the prisoner abuse scandal or the holocaust then). When there is a good and an evil, and both are led by personal beings rather than impersonal forces, then this world makes sense. Any other system falls apart when it must deal with the extremes of human existence -- pleasure or pain, the quest for satisfaction or the reality of suffering. What can bring all together? Only the cross. It is the only reality available to man, "the only name by which you must be saved." This devil guy, really. The concept has always eluded me, since it seems so absolutely convenient. All the evil in the world is the fault of Satan...so nothing is really our own fault? And the balancing force of God (which is supposedly superior but has yet to wipe out the inferior which is supposedly despised by all) is the source of all that is good...so nothing good we do is really us either? I must put forth a Simpsons reference that I saw the other night. It was the end of the one episode ("Homer the Heretic") where Homer stops going to church, and his house ends up catching on fire at the end and Flanders comes in and saves him and all the local guys come in and put out the fire. So Homer seems to think that the lesson of the day is that God is vengeful and set his house on fire, and then the preacher guy tells him that "It wasn't God who set your house on fire, but it was Him who was at work in the hearts of those who saved you." (Something to that effect, at least...Fox seems to have killed any sites with transcripts...he adds something like "Whether they be Christian (Flanders), Jewish (Krusty), or Miscellaneous (Apu)" to which Apu responds "Hindu...after all, there are a few billion of us.") But yeah, so if it's all just God and Satan working, why are we caught in the middle? It seems far more likely that such things are scapegoat figures for those tendancies in us which we cannot always control, and do not fully understand. Like Zeus tossing down lightning bolts, we have this complex of why things happen the way they do; we've built up things that make us comfortable, things that are clear and easy to understand, absolutes. It's easy to see the lines when things are black and white, but the real world is filled with shades of grey. We like to simplify things as much as we can. Into good and evil, right and wrong, North against South, US against Iraq...especially in war lines get drawn, but even in our everyday lives. Emotion...probably the greyist thing every to exist. How do you know if you're in love? If you hate? If you're happy/sad/angry/bored/excited/etc? Even in science, heh, when they were first classifying organisms it was just Plants and Animals, but then they figured out that stuff like algae and fungi didn't quite fit in those categories. A coin may have only two sides, but it also has a round edge.
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Post by bobarian on Jun 20, 2004 20:33:42 GMT -5
"Christianity is just one path of many. " -Satori So what you're saying is that Christianity is as equally true as other religions. Yet it is fundamental in Christianity that Jesus is the only way to eternal life. Why? Because Jesus is a real person, a part of the Godhead, divine, and eternal. There quite simply cannot be two Jesus', just as there can't be two Bobs (well if there were, the world would be such a better place, but I digress)... Thus Christianity is less equal because you say that its claims to exclusivism are wrong. When you say it is one path among many you are really saying that it is not true in any absolute sense of the word truth. Thus, nothing is true besides the fact that there is no truth. There is no such thing as absolute relativism. It simply cannot exist. Jesus did, does, and will. I invite you to come to know Him. " LOL, I think you have totally misinterpreted 'Eastern relativism'. Good and evil are relative, but that does not mean you don't condemn and try to stop evil." If good and evil are relative, that leaves no one with the ability to condemn anyone of anything. Hitler could simply say, "in my opinion it is correct to kill all Jews," and no one would be able to contradict him as his opinion cannot be wrong. To condemn anyone of anything is to appeal to a higher standard, the Tao. "My point was that belief in 'the devil' is ridiculous in the first place." - John And I was saying that a devil actually makes a lot of sense. There is evil, why wouldn't there be an evil being? Does evil make sense being impersonal? Or a mere by-product of human misfortune? It would make a lot of sense that in this world where there is a clear struggle between good and evil that there would be a leader of the "dark side." Only expected, of course. "I dream of a society free from this crutch." - John That is very interesting that you would say that. Implied is the fact that people need a crutch, that we are weak. Yet if a weak person can find a crutch, he will be stronger. Therefore it would be of first necessity that everyone get a crutch, correct? Then you will be stronger (or as Jesus says, born again into a new person/new existence. "This devil guy, really. The concept has always eluded me, since it seems so absolutely convenient." - Jamie Convenient, or reality confirms it. As G.K. Chesterton postulated, either Christianity is the largest hoax ever concocted and riddled with holes, or it is the most amazing story that could ever explain this incredible world in which we live. There are no middle terms to define Christianity; it is either the most horrid evil or the most excellent good (blessing). Jesus said He was coming to bring a sword... " And the balancing force of God (which is supposedly superior but has yet to wipe out the inferior which is supposedly despised by all) is the source of all that is good...so nothing good we do is really us either?" Well, this would not be the Christian view. God never created good, nor evil, (that is the Islamic view), rather, they are a part of His nature, or His character. To describe it simply, God is a real Being, and has a certain way of acting that can always be counted on (like you know your mother or your brother). Well God's character is immutable (fancy word for unchanging), and it is because He is good that there is good. So He is not the source of good, rather, He defines it. Satan rebelled against God, so neither did he create evil but rather he came to represent it. Evil is primarily this rebellion against God's lordship over creation. It is not a thing so much as an absence of a thing (submission). And it is a destructive force. Anyway. Tangent. Sorry. Satan does not take the blame for any of our sins, we do (the Bible is quite clear on this). But, he is the leader of the alter-kingdom which seeks to defeat God's kingdom, the kingdom founded on righteousness. Thus, the world is a giant cosmic battle between two opposing forces. But these forces are not the source of good or evil, there are just the powers that represent them. Satan is evil. God is good. But the converse is not true. Yoke? I hope I explained it well. The rest of your post is really, really good. I liked that Homer illustration. Quite humorous, as well. "we cannot always control, and do not fully understand." I totally agree that a lot of our sinful nature (evil self) is hard to understand and beyond our control. In fact, it is impossible to define evil and good apart from God. Satan's best trick is to confuse the two ("Well did God really say... "etc. etc.). "the real world is filled with shades of grey." I totally agree. The key though is to see is that we can't even tell what is a grey if we do not know what black and white are. Obviously we do know if we mention the color grey as opposed to black and white. It is not that absolute morals do not exist but rather that they are quite hard to understand or apply to reality (more the latter, I think). That is why the coming of Christ, the Messiah ("Anointed One") was so important. He explained this whole human mess to us... in the gospels. Read 'em sometime. They're quite good. I'd recommend the author too
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Post by Satori on Jun 21, 2004 16:19:50 GMT -5
So what you're saying is that Christianity is as equally true as other religions. Yet it is fundamental in Christianity that Jesus is the only way to eternal life. Why? The reason that this is 'fundamental' is because it was written 2000 years ago for a different culture. The writers of the Bible had to make their point to the Romans. The Christian religion we see today is a result of it being told to 'sort it self out' and unify the various schools of thought prevalent at the time. The point that I've been trying to make is that maybe the religion can begin to move with the times a bit and maybe Christians can recognise that the message may be delivered in a vastly different way if Jesus was around today. We've been down this route before. One can take many routes to arrive at a destination and one doesn't need to classify the route as 'true' or 'false' in such a black and white sense. Sure it can; you just don't see it. Thanks, but I'll stick to my own path which I invite you to come to know in return. Says who? They are relative, yet we all have the ability to condemn based upon our own perceptions about what crosses the line as being unacceptable behaviour in a civilised society. You're misunderstanding relativism. Without 'good' there cannot be 'evil'. There will always be 'evil' as long as there is 'good'; what we consider to be 'evil' will only ever be relative to what we consider to be 'good'. Interpretations of 'good' and 'evil' change down the ages. Human sacrifice, for example, was once a 'good' thing to do in favour of ones god, yet now the majority of people would consider it to be evil. Even today, there is a divide between people who think that it's okay to kill in certain circumstances (war, death penaly etc) and those that believe it's never okay to kill. Bob, our views are quite different and I'm not sure what we'll achieve by our discussions, but I guess the point of a forum like this is that we don't really need to achieve anything at all.
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Post by Lynnet on Jun 22, 2004 23:25:10 GMT -5
But these forces are not the source of good or evil, there are just the powers that represent them. What is the source? I was under the impression that God was the source of everything. Yes, quite good explanation. Obviously I do not concur And alas, I must be going...it's too late to be musing on metaphor. I have read quite a bit of the gospels from church stuff, but should probably go back and read them through...I'm such a horridly slow reader though, heh.
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Post by Amminadab on Jun 29, 2004 23:51:17 GMT -5
Why is the devil such an elusive concept?
One might ask because many different religions have believed that such a being has existed. I find it ironic sometimes how throughout history, we see patterns of belief repeating over and over again. Perhaps these concepts are not myth, but actual fact that was lost to the history books because of great expanses of time. Like the flood story. There are over 120 stories of a worldwide flood, all with similar accounts of a great deluge.
So, there are many accounts of a devil(s) in many religions. Each is the embodiment of evil. Maybe (just perhaps) these religions are talking about something that is real.
A real evil. A real devil. One who seeks to destroy what is good.
It seems to me that people blame concrete things as reasons for problems. "It's the government's fault" or "He did it". If life is a battle between good and evil, this comes as obvious parrying from a side, the evil one. And, since most units are led by a General, it makes sense that there is a Devil leading them. Surely it makes sense that God is leading the other side (although some would believe it is gods).
On the other hand: If life does not exist as this battle, then why do we blame others? There would be no good. There would be no evil. The world is grey. We choose where we place the line in this system. So then why do we blame people for faults when truth is relative according to this belief? There is no point in doing so, and yet it is part of human nature to blame others for problems and the evil they have done for us. I say it is inherited and inbred, meaning that we are not taught this social system, but inherit it from our parents. Whether this is true or not, because of this inner belief, it logically casts doubt on the subject of the lack of personal standards of good and evil and therefore enhances the view of good and evil.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Jul 30, 2004 20:47:25 GMT -5
I think its really funny how everyone always blames the devil for everything that goes wrong in their lives. Christians do this so often its just delightfully hilarious. The devil is a created being and hes not omnipresent. Hes not everywhere at once and im sure hes never even been ner me. Maybe he was somewhere near hitler when he was doing his thang. But i really dont think hes ever made me do anything. Im pretty sure humans are evil on their own, we dont need the devil to help us. Sure satan tempted Adam in the garden, but who ate the fruit? Thats the only thing satan ever does, he lies and he tempts. Myabe im wrong, maybe the devil is in this room right now making me type my thoughts and distracting me from doing something more important like praying. Maybe ill go do that.
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Post by Areopagite on Aug 12, 2004 16:56:39 GMT -5
I think its really funny how everyone always blames the devil for everything that goes wrong in their lives. Christians do this so often its just delightfully hilarious. The devil is a created being and hes not omnipresent. Hes not everywhere at once and im sure hes never even been ner me. Maybe he was somewhere near hitler when he was doing his thang. But i really dont think hes ever made me do anything. Im pretty sure humans are evil on their own, we dont need the devil to help us. Sure satan tempted Adam in the garden, but who ate the fruit? Thats the only thing satan ever does, he lies and he tempts. Myabe im wrong, maybe the devil is in this room right now making me type my thoughts and distracting me from doing something more important like praying. Maybe ill go do that. Hey Joel, Satan shouldn't be blamed for everything that goes wrong in people's lives. Look at the Book of Revelation and the theodicy involved there. That's God's wrath causing hail, locust plagues, etc. However, I think you are minimalizing Satan's power as well. You claim that you're sure that Satan has never been near you but that he might have been near Hitler. Do not assume that Satan will be content to just hang out with those whom he already controls. Satan and his angels are the enemies of God and His Church. He is a reality and as our sprititual enemy, he do all that he can to keep us from giving glory to God. Why would he spend all of his time with those who already serve him, when he can tempt God's people in the hope that they will stop serving Him? This is what his purpose was in tempting Adam and Eve, after all. Satan can't make us do anything, but he can tempt us (thus, we see how "free will" is demonstrated). Do not think that Satan will not tempt you, Joel. We all have our own "Achilles heel" in regards to our sinning. It is foolish to assume that Satan will not take advantage of this if it will cause us to stumble and stop following God. In all things, though, it is important to remember that Satan is limited. His limits are defined by God, of course. The spiritual war in existence is not a dualistic one, because God is Satan's superior. Satan can only do what God has allowed him to do (look at the Book of Job for an example). God the Almighty has already determined the fate of Satan.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Aug 13, 2004 23:53:03 GMT -5
My point wasnt that I will never be tempted by a demonic force. The point I am trying to make is that satan is very limited, he is not omnipresent, he can only be one place at a time. There are billions of people on this earth, I doubt he has ever made his way round to my part of this world.
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 1, 2004 0:20:02 GMT -5
um, if they exist, I don't think that spiritual beings are constrained by the laws of physics and space, Joel.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Sept 1, 2004 19:31:39 GMT -5
i guess that is a matter of opinion but all demonic forces are under the restraint that God put them under. I have no reason to believe that anyone/thing other than God is omnipresent
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 2, 2004 6:28:59 GMT -5
Quote: "i guess that is a matter of opinion but all demonic forces are under the restraint that God put them under."
-but how do you know that God hasn't granted Satan greater freedom at the moment, as he often does in the Bible?
Quote: "I have no reason to believe that anyone/thing other than God is omnipresent"
-does this mean you believe that, at each single point in time, most people (those who aren't around Satan at that moment) are utterly free of his influence (Evil)? How can you say this??!!! Surely you don't believe that your everyday conduct is utterly pure and that if it ever isn't, it means Satan's suddenly arrived at your house?! All I can say is that it looks as though you're making up all this fucking shite on the spur of the moment as convenient ways to argue with people. You don't seem to have any firm points you stick to across arguments; you just make up impromptu crap when your position is under threat.
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