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Post by Shiggy on Sept 5, 2004 3:55:32 GMT -5
does this mean that you are fine with these people not being discriminated against in teaching jobs and other areas of the public sphere not supposed to be subject to Christian rules?
Because if not, then you believe they shouldn't have the same opportunities as everyone else, in which case you DON'T consider them equal to heterosexuals.
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 5, 2004 3:58:02 GMT -5
ooh, nearly forgot, could you please tell me exactly where that abortion debate is?
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jk
Novice
Posts: 84
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Post by jk on Sept 6, 2004 0:18:39 GMT -5
The board for abortion is over in the general religion area its the board with the most threads on it. It's called ABORTION DUN DUN DUN Also earlier you said That's why I came to this board. I am deeply angered and hurt by the Christian church I was just curious as to your personal situations with the church. Sorry if this is too intrusive or anythings its jsut that im naturally curious. Also where abouts are you from in australia. I've got an aquaintance going to school there and thinking about going to grad school there. I know that you wouldnt know each other its just that im getting a better idea of where major cities are there.
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 6, 2004 2:29:39 GMT -5
I'm at the university of New England in Armidale, NSW at the moment in my second year of a Bachelor of Psych. and planning to do honours in Psych. Ah, geez, well, I've had heaps of incredibly shitty church experiences, but the general cause of where I'm at now is my observations that many, if not most, people who go to church are idiots that often fail to see the subtleties and implications of their beliefs. This is not an attack - simply an observation which I have made as an intelligent person, but no-one in the church will admit it. For example, in one of the churches I went to for a while, we had this arrangement where each youth group kid had a card of information about them, photo, etc. which was given to an adult member of the congregation to pray for them specially, that they would come to know Jesus, etc. Because I also went to the night church service, the lady who had my card approached me and wanted to talk to me about how my life was going, etc. (talking to me as if she didn't think I was a Christian, which was embarrassing and annoying). She'd seen me with my boyfriend at church and proceeded to ask me about whether we had set "boundaries" and how she wanted to keep me accountable. As it so happenned, my boyfriend and I took this issue very seriously already, but I felt too uncomfortable to outline the specifics to her (!), as I felt my privacy had been invaded. I felt a clear power relationship going on and felt she disaproved of me on the basis of my age alone, but there was never anything one could do about this sort of thing. That was just an example I thought of then, and a fairly tame one I'll admit, but there were also sexual abuse issues in that church that I knew about, but when I approached people about these sorts of things, they sort of hushed it up and brushed it aside, etc. I've also had to endure many fucked up traditional sexist attitudes, not being respected as much as males for what I say in Bible studies, etc. Probably my most upsetting church experience was when I played in the church band and one of my friends (we were about 15 at the time) had a serious crush on the band leader. They were incredibly close and he didn't seem to realise that she was flirting with him all the time and encouraged it through giving each other back massages, etc, but IMO it was his JOB to notice and to do something about it. He was a stupid, emotionally needy person who shouldn't have been a leader and when I raised this issue, because the guy was so popular and well-liked and "actively involved in ministry" ( and I was only a female teenager - DOUBLE REASON NOT TO LISTEN TO ME!) I was silenced and it continued. I knew another girl who was attracted to the youth pastor and he only acted all the more affectionately toward her and covered it all up. Then there was the bullying and ostracising of particular band members and emotionally intense relationships often blowing up into aggression, etc. sorry about the length of this post! There's been heaps more stuff, but my point is that I have experienced the Church as oppressive and frightening and to me this is a valid, evidence-based opinion. This is based on many, many different churches and Christians and it's sad, but I suppose it will always be this way - its a culture embedded in many churches.
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Post by Satori on Sept 6, 2004 9:03:39 GMT -5
Church communities differ though.
I've seen ones run by people who are genuinely kind and don't ram the religion down peoples throats, but they're there to answer questions if anyone should have any. And I've seen others where they're stark raving bonkers and attempt to frighten kids into 'believing' by painting horrific pictures of hell and such.
It's the cult psychology one has to be careful of and that applies (or should apply) as equally to Christianity/Islam/Buddhism or any other 'formal' religion as it does to these so-called 'cults' that get outlawed for brain-washing.
Christians are like any other group of people - there are good and bad folk within it.
I know lots of good Christians who are both 'genuine' Christians and nice folk; I know nice folk who aren't Christians; I know people who claim to be Christians but certainly aren't by anyone's definition of Christianity; I even know one Christian Buddhist (and that takes some explaining!).
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Post by joelhaldeman on Sept 6, 2004 15:29:28 GMT -5
I do not think homosexuals should be discriminated against. As I said i think they are equal to everyone else. I also said that I think the lifestyle is wrong and immoral. Im not sure how I would feel if they were a teacher, but as long as they are up to the same standard as other teachers I would allow it. I would just be afraid that they might encourage this behavior and have a negative affect on a child. Im not sure if this is where you were going with this but I would not allow one to be a pastor of a church. Not an active homosexual. The pastor is to be the spiritual leader of the church and I personally think the bible is clear that homosexuality is wrong. I know others believe differently.
I can understand why you have a distaste for the church because of your experiences but I have a comment about the one. In a christian church I think there should be no issue with someone asking you details about your relationships with other people. Christians are to be open with each other and not hide things. Thats the way the accountability system works. If someone doesnt want to share a detail of their life then it seems to me they have something to hide. By bringing that out in the open, people can encourage this person to do the right thing, whatever it may be. Christians should not have anything to hide, a persons faith is a community project not a personal one. I would like to appologize for the actions of the church though. Yes, we screw up and im sorry. I assure you it makes me very angry to hear that you are looked down upon as a female in the church body. I think this is absolutly wrong and whoever does that needs to be smacked. I believe there is a difference between man and woman and their roles in the church but neither is better than the other. A woman should have just as much respect as a man. If you want to talk about this specifically then I think there is a thread already about that, but im pretty sure my views have changed since that point.
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 7, 2004 2:14:38 GMT -5
Satori-- I agree with you (especially about your excellent "cult psychology" point), but IMO it is the responsibility of the Church to be extremely aware and careful of these issues and I would argue that this is not so (not nearly enough so). I do not think homosexuals should be discriminated against. As I said i think they are equal to everyone else. Im not sure how I would feel if they were a teacher, but as long as they are up to the same standard as other teachers I would allow it. I would just be afraid that they might encourage this behavior and have a negative affect on a child. Your worry that "they might encourage this behaviour and have a negative affect on a child" is sadly based on the idea that gay people are more focused on the sexual aspect of their nature than heterosexuals. This is silly. I don't hear you complaining about heterosexual people "encouraging" their sexual behaviours in children (and this is interesting, because over 90% of child sex offenders are heterosexual men - should we start to worry about male teachers sexually influencing school-children? This would actually make more statistical sense than worrying about homosexuals). Im not sure if this is where you were going with this but I would not allow one to be a pastor of a church. Not an active homosexual. The pastor is to be the spiritual leader of the church and I personally think the bible is clear that homosexuality is wrong. I know others believe differently. Yes, I think this is definitely up to the individual church and I'm not opposed to this at all; it's an issue of spiritual beliefs. I agree. I can understand why you have a distaste for the church because of your experiences but I have a comment about the one. In a christian church I think there should be no issue with someone asking you details about your relationships with other people. Christians are to be open with each other and not hide things. Thats the way the accountability system works. If someone doesnt want to share a detail of their life then it seems to me they have something to hide. By bringing that out in the open, people can encourage this person to do the right thing, whatever it may be. Christians should not have anything to hide, a persons faith is a community project not a personal one. The "accountability system" you speak of often also serves to deny individuals personal privacy and I must disagree with you here. Even within the "Christian family", it is extremely important to preserve the rights of the individual. My experience was certainly a misuse of the system to exert social power and the right to privacy must be preserved to protect individuals from this. I firmly disagree with your last sentence. A person's faith IS an extremely personal project and this is how we will be judged by God; on our OWN personal lives, regardless of what others know about us. Until the cultures of guilt and shame in churches dissapear completely, personal privacy must be protected. Personally, I have never found these "accountability" arrangements of any benefit whatsoever. All they have ever served in my experience is to put people under surveillance and cause them to feel uncomfortable if they want to leave the church. I would like to appologize for the actions of the church though. Yes, we screw up and im sorry. I assure you it makes me very angry to hear that you are looked down upon as a female in the church body. I think this is absolutly wrong and whoever does that needs to be smacked. I believe there is a difference between man and woman and their roles in the church but neither is better than the other. A woman should have just as much respect as a man. If you want to talk about this specifically then I think there is a thread already about that, but im pretty sure my views have changed since that point. Thanks for the kind words. You sound like you are aware of this discrimination's prevalence. My main problem, however, is that the Bible itself does discriminate against women (head coverings, submission to the authority of the male family head (husband), verses regarding women's church service participation, etc).
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Post by joelhaldeman on Sept 7, 2004 20:52:30 GMT -5
Who said anything about sex?
you wont find that in the bible, Jesus never said anything about personal privacy and living a faith on your own. ever. You are customizing the bible
in my book submission does not equal discrimination Children have to submit to adults, that is not discrimination God created man to be the leader in relationships. Have men terribly screwed up this role? Yes. But men are to take the lead, of course it looks terrible when men are being pussys and not steping up and taking the lead. As far as church services go, a woman can do anything a man can do as far as im concerned anyway. The issue is in leadership. And yes there are some girls who are good at leading. I suggest that they lead other women, theres no problem here. But God said that man was going to be the leader in the relationship because someone has to take the lead. He defines it for us, and his reason behind it is that eve was the first one to screw up. Both are equal in his eyes, he loves us all equally
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 7, 2004 23:23:32 GMT -5
Who said anything about sex? What other sorts of "undesirable behaviours" are you worried about, then? you wont find that in the bible, Jesus never said anything about personal privacy and living a faith on your own. ever. You are customizing the bible Joel, each person is judged individually by God. It is a highly personal relationship. How else would He separate those who believe from those who do not?! It matters not what others on Earth know about us; in the end, God judges each person individually. Ecclesiastes 12:14 "For God will bring every deed into judgement, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil." Psalms 7:8 "let the Lord judge the peoples. Judge me, O Lord, according to my righteousness, according to my integrity, O Most High." Ezekial 7:27 "The king will mourn, the prince will be clothed with despair, and the hands of the people of the land will tremble. I will deal with them according to their conduct, and by their own standards I will judge them. The they will know that I am the Lord." John 5:28-29 (Jesus speaking) "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice (29) and come out - those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." Romans 2:16 "This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares." Matthew 3:10 "The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire." (See also Luke 3:9) Matthew 25:14-30 and Luke 19:11-27 (the Parable of the Talents, in which God judges individuals according to the amount of fruit they personally bear) in my book submission does not equal discrimination Children have to submit to adults, that is not discrimination Are you comparing adult women to children? The reason children submit to adults is because we consider them less able to take care of themselves and of unequal status to adults. This is an extremely offensive metaphor to use, and only illustrates the ridiculousness of the notion that women should submit to men. God created man to be the leader in relationships... As far as church services go, a woman can do anything a man can do as far as im concerned anyway. The issue is in leadership. And yes there are some girls who are good at leading. I suggest that they lead other women, theres no problem here... A woman can do anything a man can do, but should only lead other women. Can't you see this is a contradiction? Make up your mind which statement you believe and then we can debate this. his reason behind it is that eve was the first one to screw up. Both are equal in his eyes, he loves us all equally I don't even need to explain that this is simply cruel and unfair - all women receive a special status of shame and submission to males because of this sin. These lines are also a contradiction: woman and man are arbitrarily given unequal power status, but "both are equal in His eyes". We are clearly not equal in God's eyes in terms of power.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Sept 8, 2004 0:24:48 GMT -5
He may encourage them to start a relationship with another man.. Some romantic relationships do exist that dont involve sex.
Yes God will judge us individually, yes we are called to have integrity and of course there are going to be areas of our life that people will never see but the more open you are and the more you share those things the better accountability you will have and the easier it will be to rid yourself of sin God wants us to bare the sins of each other and help each other. We are one body. This is an obviouse and clear theme throughout the entire bible. Especially the OT. If a group of israelites did something bad then God became angry at the entire nation. We all share each others burdens. Read these
col 3:13 ecc 4 eph 4 Romans 12:5 Many form one body Eph 5:3-Holy people, not individuals Proverbs 15:22
A woman can do anything a man can do in a church service. I ment to say they can lead worship, they can lead a sermon. I do not think they are to be the head leader of the church. This would not affect a church service.
is it possible to have a different role and be loved equally? I sure think so. Can a father have a son and daughter and love them equally even though they are different and do different things? Yes
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 8, 2004 0:59:46 GMT -5
the more open you are and the more you share those things the better accountability you will have and the easier it will be to rid yourself of sin God wants us to bare the sins of each other and help each other. We are one body. This is an obviouse and clear theme throughout the entire bible. Especially the OT. If a group of israelites did something bad then God became angry at the entire nation. We all share each others burdens. Yes, I can see this. Faith is still very important on a personal level, though, and I don't think that anyone should ever be pressured to share things about themselves just so that others can embarrass them. Sadly, in many church situations this does happen. When it is done right I don't have a problem with it. My issue is that it often isn't done right and I think that people deserve the right to protect themselves from this exploitation by people on power trips through not having to disclose if they choose not to. A woman can do anything a man can do in a church service. I ment to say they can lead worship, they can lead a sermon. I do not think they are to be the head leader of the church. This would not affect a church service. What I previously said about the injustice of this inferior status need not be repeated. is it possible to have a different role and be loved equally? I sure think so. Can a father have a son and daughter and love them equally even though they are different and do different things? Yes Joel, I'm not talking about different roles. The way you see this is incredibly simplistic. Can't you see that by constantly putting the male in positions of authority over the woman, gender and power become linked? This power imbalance has been the historical cause of domestic violence and child abuse, as well as the widespread oppression of women more generally. In addition, I disagree that women and men simply have different "roles" in the church. The only difference between women and men in the Church is that men are allowed to take on any role, while women can only take some roles. The woman's role is not different; it is simply lesser.
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 10, 2004 2:51:12 GMT -5
God created man to be the leader in relationships. Have men terribly screwed up this role? Yes. But men are to take the lead... I get what you're saying, but I can't help feeling that you're saying that this is just the way it is - men shouldn't "screw up this role", but humans are flawed and this will happen, etc. Sadly, this type of explanation implies that women must simply sit and wait, continue being submissive, etc. until the problem is fixed by the man. I think it would make a great deal more sense for the woman to be allowed not to be submissive, because this gives her more ability to protect herself and take action when it is needed. Persistent submission of one partner to the other, IMO, will always be unjust. Gender is an arbitrary and dangerous way of allocating power.
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Post by bobarian on Sept 19, 2004 22:49:23 GMT -5
"The way you see this is incredibly simplistic."
May I imply the opposite by your own position.
"Can't you see that by constantly putting the male in positions of authority over the woman, gender and power become linked?"
You are misunderstanding or misintrepreting the biblical texts regarding this matter. The bible does not equate authority with power or "headship" with domination. The pastor is called to be a servant; the husband is called to love his wife as Christ loved the church (by being letting himself be literally torn apart byher if need be.) There are no domineering "power" images associated with either of these biblical precepts. Christians recognize one Lord - and under this Lord He has made both men and women who are inherently different, and so, with different roles in the church and with one another. Neither has "power" over the other in the sense that "power is the ability to get others to do what you want when they don't want to do it." Both voluntarily submit to what each other want because this is love.
It is because of your own humanistic beliefs that you can't see love and submission being in the same sentence (or at least, that's my understanding from what you've written.) Of course if all we know about each other is that we are equal beings then we can't expect anyone to submit to anyone else about anything. But willing submission is one of the most beautiful things about love; it is one of the things that our culture has stripped of it.
"Greater love has no man than this: that he lay down his life for his friend."
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 21, 2004 2:05:10 GMT -5
[quote author=bobarian link=board=doubt&thread=1073000589&start=57#3 date=1095652163"Can't you see that by constantly putting the male in positions of authority over the woman, gender and power become linked?"
You are misunderstanding or misintrepreting the biblical texts regarding this matter. The bible does not equate authority with power or "headship" with domination. The pastor is called to be a servant; the husband is called to love his wife as Christ loved the church (by being letting himself be literally torn apart byher if need be.) There are no domineering "power" images associated with either of these biblical precepts. Christians recognize one Lord - and under this Lord He has made both men and women who are inherently different, and so, with different roles in the church and with one another. Neither has "power" over the other in the sense that "power is the ability to get others to do what you want when they don't want to do it." Both voluntarily submit to what each other want because this is love.
It is because of your own humanistic beliefs that you can't see love and submission being in the same sentence (or at least, that's my understanding from what you've written.) Of course if all we know about each other is that we are equal beings then we can't expect anyone to submit to anyone else about anything. But willing submission is one of the most beautiful things about love; it is one of the things that our culture has stripped of it.
"Greater love has no man than this: that he lay down his life for his friend."[/quote]
I agree with you that submission can be an expression of love, and can also be socially useful.
However, I believe this to be the case only when the submission is equally distributed between all people; otherwise, submission becomes an extremely socially dangerous thing: eg. if women's submission to men receives greater emphasis, then gender and power DO (and HAVE) become socially linked. As I previously mentioned, this is evidenced by socially common expressions of male power over women in society such as domestic violence, rape, etc.
My problem is with Christianity's emphasis on female submission, and the obvious horrendous and extremely painful consequences of it. Why isn't it equal? Is there something innate about women which threatens the patriarchy of the Church? This is a silly, superstitious belief which underlies Christian interpretations of gender.
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 21, 2004 2:40:44 GMT -5
The bible does not equate authority with power or "headship" with domination. I disagree. Even the New Testament contains derogatory passages about women needing to be under authority and domination: 1 Timothy 2:11-15 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. (12) I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent... (15) But women will be saved through childbearing - if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." - NIV This passage also illustrates my previous point about the inequality inherent in Christian notions of submission; men may have authority over women, but not the other way around. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 " women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. (35) If they want to enquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." - NIV -Why is it disgraceful? Is there something inherently unholy about women in which men are spiritually superior? I find this passage grossly offensive and extremely hurtful. There are many other passages and subtle wordings in the Bible that construct women as deserving less authority than men. This issue is about power and should be taken very seriously, or more harm will be done.
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