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Post by joelhaldeman on Jan 3, 2004 3:18:04 GMT -5
Alright i didnt need to call you a very angry person but the other thing i was using to make a fact. You claim that you arnt salvage like and i was just trying to use that as an example as you not caring for people. That was rather stupid of me because i know we all have done or said stupid things like whether seriouse or not. Im am sorry and ask for your forgivness for that.
Yes lord of the flies, the main point of that book that is pointed out by most english teachers at warwick is that man is inatly(spelling?) evil. He does not need to be taught to be bad and that is another good point to be discused.
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Post by ContentUnitShifter on Jan 3, 2004 3:41:15 GMT -5
....man is inatly(spelling?) evil. He does not need to be taught to be bad and that is another good point to be discused. Indeed, that is a good topic to discuss, and thus, I have created said thread in the Philosophy section.
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Jan 3, 2004 5:12:34 GMT -5
oh i wouldnt say he's weak and pathetic, just cause he believes in a differing point of view. He may be misguided, according to our belief, but that doesnt make him weak and pathetic. To have views in this world is what makes it so great. But i have to agree. A person "not knowing god" is not a person with no lust for life, no zest that spirits us. I beg to differ, im a very zestful guy, mostly. so we're not like savages or something for not "knowing god." I wasnt calling him weak and pathetic, I dont believe him to be weak and pathetic. namely because I dont believe what he said is the truth about him. I think he believes it is. I thought I stated that I didnt really think that of him in that post.
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Post by JesusOnaBicycle on Jan 4, 2004 0:03:13 GMT -5
i dont think anyone has any right to say anyones ideas make sense or are shit. nobody can prove anything, therefore religion is a very diverse thing which isnt universal and bonding of humanity, but a more personal thing and can be changed to suit the needs of the believer. everyone is right and everyone is wrong. we're all equally cluess shits in this fucked up reality.
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Post by H-Zence on Jan 4, 2004 0:04:19 GMT -5
Truth hurts.
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Post by PaganPriest on Jan 6, 2004 11:41:58 GMT -5
... we're all equally cluess shits in this fucked up reality. hey, i dont know about how much you know or anything. but i'd like to think that i know a thing or two about life
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Post by angiesmallfrie on Jan 10, 2004 13:29:45 GMT -5
I do not know if I would be considered a christian. I believe that Jesus died on the cross for me and that I am going to Heaven for that particular reason. The label Christian could mean anything today. I mean you could be labeled a Christian just because you go to church. I go to church but I feel there is more to it than that.
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Jan 11, 2004 17:17:25 GMT -5
I do not know if I would be considered a christian. I believe that Jesus died on the cross for me and that I am going to Heaven for that particular reason. The label Christian could mean anything today. I mean you could be labeled a Christian just because you go to church. I go to church but I feel there is more to it than that. The label christian can be twisted based on people who pretend to follow the religion. But if you believe christ died on the cross for you, and believe there is more to it than going to church, your a christian in my book. You'd need to be saved to technically be a christian. Unfortunately the religion I speak of, just as all other religions of our earth, is false. IMO of course. ;D
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Post by Colliohn on Jan 23, 2004 17:30:28 GMT -5
Wow, I'm sorry I didn't see this thread before, it is quite interesting.
I'd like to say that, as far as I know, I am a pretty happy person. I don't believe in any sort of deity that will save me when I die, or of any other sort of afterlife/reincarnation dealio. I don't abide by the laws of any religion (at least, I don't pick a religion to follow; I'm sure a lot of my morals have similar morals in one religion or another). Just because I believe we no longer exist when we die doesn't mean I go through live like a stupid log, just going day by day, wishing and hoping for something more because I'm depressed and lonely, and hating myself and everyone. Generally, I respect/tolerate/appreciate just about everyone I know, and am usually happy to have the friends and acquaintences that I do, because in their friendship I am a better person. I love people as much as I think anyone really knows how to 'love'.
So, besides the whole religion thing, I think I am pretty similar to the majority of strong-willed intelligent Christians I know.
I do seek something more, though; not because I am depressed or angry or hateful or lonely, but because I am curious, insatiably curious as to what the deal is with this world we live in, and of ourselves as the only sentient beings we know of (or maybe at all). Will I ever find an answer to my deepest questions? Probably not. But I won't be the worse for trying, and I know that when I die, even if I cease to exist, I will have spent my life learning and searching so that future humans will know at least a little bit more than I did, and will be able to answer their questions even if I could not answer my own.
Hopefully that makes understanding my viewpoints a little easier.
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jk
Novice
Posts: 84
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Post by jk on Jan 24, 2004 0:12:24 GMT -5
Wow, i think that is something everyone should seek to attain. That was just briliantly said.
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Post by Shiggy on Aug 30, 2004 2:43:10 GMT -5
I just wanted to say in response to Joel's earlier stereotype of non-christian values- I really think that today's Christian culture is EXTREMELY money- and greed-centred. The good, clean , normative american image of the christian is very white, very clean, wealthy, etc. I often hear people say things at church like "I need a nice big house to show hospitality to my fellow brethren", and crap like that. Furthermore, the view that material wealth is a "blessing" or a reward from the Lord for living a good life has recently become very popular in churches and nice and convenient for Christians everywhere to worship God and Mammon at the same time! Don't even get me started on capitalists merchandising the **** out of Christianity, Hillsong churning out two-dimensional songs for a nice quick buck, etc, etc. Modern Christian values and ways of thinking are EXTREMELY tied up with social status and material wealth - not nearly as pure, true, or altruistic as you seem to believe.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Aug 31, 2004 20:36:10 GMT -5
i agree
except I believe that christian morals at the core is pure and true, as long as they arnt altered or exploited by man
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Post by Shiggy on Aug 31, 2004 23:21:07 GMT -5
Fair enough.
I just think that if we are to judge a tree by its fruit then Christianity does not fare very well at all. Even if man does stuff things up, if Christianity is true the sacred realm of the Church (and certainly of the Bible) should at least appear better than the non-Christian world and way of life, which I consider highly debatable.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Sept 1, 2004 19:39:40 GMT -5
I agree but I have something to say to that. I just finished reading a book by CS Lewis called Mere Christianity. It is a very good book as far as questioning the doctrins of Christianity and why God is. One of the last chapters was titled "Nice People or New Man." The basic question he was trying to answer in the chapter was why there are non christians who are nicer than christians. I found it very interesting because it was something that I always questioned. He makes the point that when a man becomes a christian he is not going to become the nicest of all people. No where in the Bible does it say christians are nicer than non christians. Yes, there needs to be a life change when a person becomes 'born again'. The point is we all come from different places. One may grow up in a society which teaches him to be nice to all people and this person may be very nice his entire life yet never become a christian. Another person may grow up in a household or society where he does not learn to be nice to people. He could have had cruel parents which never taught him any morals. All his life he is a mean person until he becomes a christian. When he becomes a christian his life changes and he is nicer than he was before. This does not garentee that this man is going to be a nicer man than the non christian. The bible only says that there will be a change in that persons life. This is on an individual level and of course the christian church should appear to be nicer than the secular based on its doctrine. Unfortunetly were flawed and screw up and not everyone who claims to be a christian acts like one.
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 2, 2004 6:11:31 GMT -5
I agree but I have something to say to that. I just finished reading a book by CS Lewis called Mere Christianity. It is a very good book as far as questioning the doctrins of Christianity and why God is. One of the last chapters was titled "Nice People or New Man." The basic question he was trying to answer in the chapter was why there are non christians who are nicer than christians. I found it very interesting because it was something that I always questioned. He makes the point that when a man becomes a christian he is not going to become the nicest of all people. No where in the Bible does it say christians are nicer than non christians. Yes, there needs to be a life change when a person becomes 'born again'. The point is we all come from different places. One may grow up in a society which teaches him to be nice to all people and this person may be very nice his entire life yet never become a christian. Another person may grow up in a household or society where he does not learn to be nice to people. He could have had cruel parents which never taught him any morals. All his life he is a mean person until he becomes a christian. When he becomes a christian his life changes and he is nicer than he was before. This does not garentee that this man is going to be a nicer man than the non christian. The bible only says that there will be a change in that persons life. This is on an individual level and of course the christian church should appear to be nicer than the secular based on its doctrine. Unfortunetly were flawed and screw up and not everyone who claims to be a christian acts like one. Yes, I have read Mere Christianity and I thought it made some great points. Sure, becoming a Christian doesn't "guarantee" that one will become a nicer person, but it sure as hell SHOULD produce noticeable, positive change to some degree. I don't know whether I would call myself a Christian - probably yes, but I know that in the past when I was really into it, I was so considerate of others and selfless and kind, and the biggest thing I noticed was that other "Christians" around me were just behaving like stupid ignorant assholes. I think that churches have an extremely high proportion of less educated and small-minded people (I am talking about a country church, though, I suppose...), and these people seem to really enjoy the little power trips they have in their local church communities. I still firmly hold the belief that Christians, in my experience, are not only not better than other people, but that they are worse. Chance live events you mentioned would allow the Christian community to be EQUAL TO the rest of people (and this would indicate it does nothing to improve negative life situations). However, if the Christian community was WORSE interpersonally than non-Christians (which I have found in my limited personal situation), this would indicate its main interpersonal effects are negative. I see this as a huge concern. Quote: "All his life he is a mean person until he becomes a christian. When he becomes a christian his life changes and he is nicer than he was before. This does not garentee that this man is going to be a nicer man than the non christian. The bible only says that there will be a change in that persons life. This is on an individual level and of course the christian church should appear to be nicer than the secular based on its doctrine. Unfortunetly were flawed and screw up and not everyone who claims to be a christian acts like one." Your final sentence contradicts the previous two. You also say that the person should be nicer than he/she was before. Well, Joel, what if I suggested that THIS OFTEN DOESN'T HAPPEN. You would reply that the person wasn't really "born again". I see a few problems with this but, even allowing this simplistic assertion, you still don't seem to acknowledge the fact that MANY people not only fail to improve, but become WORSE after converting, such as more dogmatic, proud, arrogant, narrow-minded and superior, and less curious, spontaneous, humble and kind. You cannot deny that central aspects of Christianity encourage the development of these negative personality traits in vast numbers of Christians. My point still stands that if Christianity was primarily a positive life influence, MOST Christians would be nicer people than most non-christians, simply by the basic laws of mathematics. They may well be; it is just that so far I have definitely NOT found this to be the case, and I don't think I'm alone here.
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