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Post by joelhaldeman on Sept 2, 2004 20:21:35 GMT -5
I dont see how i am contradicting myself in that sentence, i said he will become nicer, that does not mean he will be up to the level of the nonchristian. One can improve and still not be a very nice person.
But yeah the whole asking if they are truely "born again" or not, of course im going to go there. I firmly believe that a christian is more than just a person who believes in God. Even the demons believe in God. When someone becomes a christian their life MUST change, if it does not then i dont think they have become a christian. The Bible says repent and you will be saved. It is by faith we are saved and faith without deeds is dead. A life change must accompany a decision. It is so much more than praying a prayer and going to the front of a church service. I think this is illustrated best by Matthew 7
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 2, 2004 21:53:55 GMT -5
of course the christian church should appear to be nicer than the secular based on its doctrine. Unfortunetly were flawed and screw up and not everyone who claims to be a christian acts like one. Want me to spell it ou for you, huh? THIS is your contradiction. You have ridiculously failed to address my post's points properly! Why the hell did you choose to ignore my points about Christians getting WORSE? Why the hell have you not replied to my point that, if Christianity helped most of its followers INDIVIDUALLY, they'd be a better people collectively than non-christians as a group? (because both christians and non-christians will be composed of a mix of nice and not-so-nice people to begin with, so the Christians should improve if the religion DOES have these positive effects you speak of) Honestly, Joel, I am really pissed that I had to just spell out all my points AGAIN for you just to get a frickin' answer out of you. Its people like you who make Christianity seem simplistic and stupid.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Sept 3, 2004 0:05:07 GMT -5
there are so many things i want to say right now
but your attacking me and calling me the downfall of christianity so im done with you
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 3, 2004 2:49:43 GMT -5
How very convenient. You need to learn to accept rebuke.
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pericles
Novice
Advocatus Diaboli
Posts: 55
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Post by pericles on Sept 3, 2004 7:52:35 GMT -5
Is it obvious to anyone else that this non-Christian, at least, is not very nice?
Shiggy, you are proving Joel's point quite well. He is not being angry, swearing, or otherwise getting all heated up over the subject. You are. Look at the log in your own eye before you complain about the speck in others.
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Post by Areopagite on Sept 3, 2004 7:57:28 GMT -5
Throughout your posts, you expect someone to admit that your twisted beliefs are fact. Have you even considered that this is just your opinion?
Wow. For someone who complains that Christians are worse than non-Christians, its amazing how you come out with a nasty personal attack like that.
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 3, 2004 17:59:02 GMT -5
OK fine.
Joel - I apologise for my harsh words; I just find it irritating when I raise a point and the only Christian on this board who will answer it chooses to misinterpret what I write.
And yes, Aeropagite and pericles, I am getting "all heated up" over the subject, because I believe it is very important. That's why I came to this board. I am deeply angered and hurt by the Christian church and, if you had bothered to actually read my post, you would see that I did say that it was just in "my own limited experience" that I had experienced Christians as worse people. I also say at the end of my post that Christians may be better people overall, but that in MY OWN EXPERIENCE, this has not been the case.
I also continue to assert my belief that Christianity DOES seem to encourage dogmatism, pride, etc. The fact that no-one will deal with this disappoints me.
I feel annoyed that the points I raised in my post will now never be addressed; what a waste of time.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Sept 3, 2004 22:51:40 GMT -5
So how do i go about changing every single christian into a perfect human being?
I have yet to find a Bible verse or even a pastor that encourages pride. Just because one is prideful and also a christian does not mean that christianity supports prideful behavior.
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 3, 2004 23:14:06 GMT -5
So how do i go about changing every single christian into a perfect human being? I have yet to find a Bible verse or even a pastor that encourages pride. Just because one is prideful and also a christian does not mean that christianity supports prideful behavior. Joel, I'm not saying that every single Christian has to be a perfect human being. I am saying that if Christians, as a group, are generally more prideful than others, this says something about Christianity. You may not think that Christians tend to be more prideful than anyone else, but I do. I guess this is where we differ, so we proably can't really argue about it after all. But for me, this problem continues to exist.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Sept 4, 2004 17:56:02 GMT -5
so, geographically, where have you noticed this pride amoung christians?
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 4, 2004 20:29:29 GMT -5
Well, I'm assuming everyone here is in America so telling you about where I've been is probably irrelevant to you (I'm Australian) - as I've previously said, mainly country churches.
However, I really consider the huge interactions between church and state a terrible problem in the USA - restrictive abortion laws, all that stupid regressive controversy about gay people not being accepted as schoolteachers, and Bush's frightening ties to Christian right-wing politics. These abortion- and gay-related attitudes are, to me, clear examples of dogmatic and silly Christian thinking. I know from posts of yours I have read that you hold many of these attitudes. I'm not saying every Christian holds these specific opinions, they are just examples (and I consider those who hold them dogmatic and ignorant).
I have seen these issues being debated on other boards, though, so Í think most of what we have said or will say would be doubling up here.
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Post by Areopagite on Sept 4, 2004 22:04:00 GMT -5
Well, I'm assuming everyone here is in America so telling you about where I've been is probably irrelevant to you (I'm Australian) - as I've previously said, mainly country churches. However, I really consider the huge interactions between church and state a terrible problem in the USA - restrictive abortion laws, all that stupid regressive controversy about gay people not being accepted as schoolteachers, and Bush's frightening ties to Christian right-wing politics. These abortion- and gay-related attitudes are, to me, clear examples of dogmatic and silly Christian thinking. I know from posts of yours I have read that you hold many of these attitudes. I'm not saying every Christian holds these specific opinions, they are just examples (and I consider those who hold them dogmatic and ignorant). I have seen these issues being debated on other boards, though, so Í think most of what we have said or will say would be doubling up here. Hey Shiggy, It's cool to hear that you're from Australia! I don't think we have to many non-Americans on this board. I don't see why you consider those who believe (such as I) that homosexuality and abortion are wrong as being ignorant. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them ignorant. Someone can be extremely educated in the matter and still disagree with you. What, therefore, causes you to assume Christians are ignorant in such matters? I, for one, am aware of the issues, but by your statement that you "consider those who hold [anti-abortion and anti-homosexuality views] as being dogmatic and ignorant", you assume, therefore, that I am dogmatic and ignorant, despite the fact that I could possibly provide a lucid, well thought out, intelligent objection to abortion and homosexuality. To assume that I am dogmatic and ignorant, therefore, without knowing why I believe what I believe, and what knowledge I have pertaining to such issues, seems...well... dogmatic and ignorant.
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 4, 2004 22:38:31 GMT -5
To assume that I am dogmatic and ignorant, therefore, without knowing why I believe what I believe, and what knowledge I have pertaining to such issues, seems...well... dogmatic and ignorant. In response, I must say I do believe I know the "reasons" you will put forward for your beliefs. It may be possible that I am wrong about you, but I must confess that I don't expect you to have good reasons (this is why I think such opinions are ignorant - that, in my view, they usually aren't based on logic). Please enlighten me and prove me wrong: will you please outline your reasons? (by the way, I just thought I'd say that not all Christians have homophobic or anti-abortion attitudes - it's quite possible be a Christian without these views.)
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Post by Shiggy on Sept 5, 2004 0:34:37 GMT -5
Sorry 'bout the double post, but I just remembered that the homosexuality debate was argued in great detail on the "bigots, homophobes and assholes" board of the "Ventilation Chamber" section. It would be redundant to discuss it again here - go see objections to homophobia on that board. On the abortion issue, however, I'd love to debate with you. Please outline your oppositions to abortion and I would be glad to refute them
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Post by joelhaldeman on Sept 5, 2004 1:16:24 GMT -5
theres also a good 10 pages of abortion debate on the main page. And just because i am a christian doesnt mean i am anti homosexuals. I believe it is wrong but i believe they are equal to anyone else and deserve the same love as anyone else
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