|
Post by joelhaldeman on May 14, 2004 14:59:56 GMT -5
ill admite to being somewhat afraid to die. Yes i look forward to eternity but the bible has very very little information about what happens after we die. Yes it mentions heaven and hell and judgement and what not but to stand before God is going to be a pretty scary thing. I find comfort in knowing I have jesus to speak for me cuz i probably wont be able to speak to God. I really dont know the specifics and we could be wrong about some things, however i think its clear that there is a heaven and im pretty sure im going there. Death is frightening, iv never been there before, not to many people have returned to speak about it. All i know is i have someone waiting on the other side for me, someone who cares for me and will accept me. assuming all this is true
|
|
|
Post by Satori on May 14, 2004 16:28:56 GMT -5
Death (and taxes, they say) are inevitable but, in the West, we do often seem to view birth, life and death is distinct events rather than a continuous cycle. I think this 'punctuation' of events in our existence makes them harder to deal with. It portrays the nature of impermanence in terms of things just stopping and starting rather than merely changing.
I believe death is like a change of clothes and, as such, is nothing to fear. Unfortunately I am subject to the same human conditioning that everyone else is, so I still grieve when it happens to those close to me. It is selfish, I know, but I doubt I'll be conquering it any time soon.
|
|
|
Post by joelhaldeman on May 14, 2004 23:06:25 GMT -5
well then i guess im excited to put on some awesome beautiful clothing but im kind nervous about getting naked before putting on the new clothing
....
|
|
|
Post by swankshoez on May 15, 2004 14:51:38 GMT -5
Not many people can truthfully say they do not fear death. In the back of everyone’s mind is some fear, either great or small, of death. I know if someone I knew closely were to die I would feel a great sadness, I am human (as are we All) but I would come to realize that there is a plan for everything. And sure you can think that Christianity is a fluke... but, explain to me how this works out then (I have posted this other places. It is found on www.biblebelievers.org.au/panindx.htm) "If we look at the first 17 verses of the New Testament (The Gospel of Matthew) which deals with a single principal subject: the genealogy of Jesus Christ, It contains 72 Greek vocabulary words in these initial 17 versus(*note; The verse divisions are man's allocation for convenience, added in the thirteenth-century A.D.). We find the following Heptadic (7) structure throughout these original Greek versus. 1 The number of words which are nouns is exactly 56, or 7 x 8. 2 The Greek word "the" occurs most frequently in the passage: exactly 56 times, or 7 x 8. 3 Also, the number of different forms in which the article "the" occurs is exactly 7. 4 There are two main sections in the passage: verse 1-11 and 12-17. In the first main section, the number of Greek vocabulary words used is 49, or 7 x 7. 5 Of these 49 words, The number of those beginning with a vowel is 28, or 7 x 4. 6 The number of words beginning with a consonant is 21, or 7 x 3. 7 The total number of letters in these 49 words is exactly 266, or 7 x 38-exactly. 8 The numbers of vowels among these 266 letters is 140, or 7 x 20. 9 The number of consonants is 126, or 7 x 18-exactly. 10 Of these 49 words, the number of words which occur more than once is 35, or 7 x 5. 11 The number of words occurring only once is 14, or 7 x2. 12 The number of words which occur in only one form is exactly 42, or 7 x 6. 13 The number of words appearing in more than one form is also 7. 14 The number of 49 Greek vocabulary words which are nouns is 42, or 7 x 6. 15 The number of words which are not nouns is 7. 16 Of the nouns, 35 are proper names, or 7 x 5. 17 These 35 nouns are used 63 times, or 7 x 9. 18 The number of male names is 28, or 7 x 4. 19 These male names occur 56 times or 7 x 8. 20 The number which are not male names is 7. 21 Three women are mentioned-Tamar, Rahab, and Ruth. The number of Greek letters in these three names is 14, or 7 x 2. 22 The number of compound nouns is 7. 23 The number of Greek letters in these 7 nouns is 49, or 7 x 7. 24 Only one city is named in this passage, Babylon, which in Greek contains exactly 7 letters. " If you refuse to acknowledge this as amazing then I must come to the conclusion that in this argument we (Christians) must be open to you and your opinions, but you refuse to hear or acknowledge our facts. In which case is simply a waste of time.
|
|
|
Post by H-Zence on May 15, 2004 16:40:48 GMT -5
I "acknowledge that as amazing," but simply because I've never seen any writing so over-analyzed. Reasons why non-believers (or even believers, for that matter) would not find it amazing is because it is likely that patters such as this can also be found in other texts.
The mere fact that someone does not acknowledge that as amazing does not deem them closed-minded, nor does it deem Christians in general open-minded.
I also find it interesting how you categorized non-christian ideals as "opinion" and Christian ones as "fact."
|
|
|
Post by Satori on May 15, 2004 16:53:45 GMT -5
I find things such as the heptadic structure of certain verses of the Bible interesting, as is the '40-year Venus-cycle' recurring Biblical theme.
But I'm not sure what it tells us other than that there may be some numerological design behind the texts. Of course it's totally up to the individual to decide whether to simply see that as it is or read something else into it, but I'm not sure how far it goes towards promoting Christianity as a more virtuous or successful path to salvation, enlightenment, forgiveness, understanding or whatever you want to call the final goal of spiritual pursit.
Not that it matters in my opinion. There are many ways to undertake a journey and the specific ways chosen by the individual will depend upon the terrain their journey takes them across, influences the encounter along the way and, of course, an element of personal preference. It's the fact that one arrives at the destination that's important.
|
|
|
Post by roninjotatan on May 16, 2004 9:37:54 GMT -5
i wonder how much of my words fall on deaf ear's? do you read what we post or do you quickly scramble to disprove what we say? Everytime I come here its just monatness ramblings about jesus and fact and the bible. Why don't you people feel content about keeping your faith to yourselves? Why do you seek out the athiest and tell him his life is wrong why not let your god judge that fact (if he is real of course). Why was this post created to question us athiest about what we live for? WE live for the same thing YOU live for except every step of our lives is not justifide by the idea of a god. Some of us live in peace, some of us murder, we give you art and we make the very programs that you people use on your computers and you christians do the same.
Stop trying to put us down cause if you have not already understood this we have heard all of your words before from parents, friends and the community. We are secure in our fairth beyound messure and if we can accept death for what we think it is why cant you be content?
We hate you for what you turn your faith into. So go back to church, donate your money and time to your faith and smirk at us cause you have all the answer's cause i can assure you I am at home doing what i want to on sunday with all the money i earned smiling to my self Knowing i am right.
and who ever posted that enrty about the numbers and the bible you should really go onto google and type in "fallacies of straight thinking" cause if you ever say somthing like that to a college proffesor he will tell the class to laugh at you and will fail you cause he would assume your a moron.
|
|
|
Post by FollowTheReaper on May 16, 2004 14:16:05 GMT -5
wow, i have just noticed that some of you people sure like quoting other people. if you want to put up an argument that i think is worthy, use your own words. using the words of others doesnt show that you know anything. all it tells me is that you memorized words. guess what, i had to memorize words for my high school italian class. use your own mind and speak your own words because otherwise, i really dont think you have anything valid to say at all... its all been said already.
|
|
|
Post by Areopagite on May 16, 2004 18:34:06 GMT -5
Why don't you people feel content about keeping your faith to yourselves? Why do you seek out the athiest and tell him his life is wrong why not let your god judge that fact (if he is real of course). Why was this post created to question us athiest about what we live for? Perhaps, Roninjotatan, you don't understand Christianity as well as you think you do, if you would say something like this. Jesus sends out his disciples to fufill the "Great Commission". Look it up sometime.
|
|
|
Post by H-Zence on May 16, 2004 18:55:49 GMT -5
Areopagite, I was hoping someone would reply to that. Especially if he's referring to these forums, where Christians (and atheists alike) are encouraged to speak their opinions.
|
|
jk
Novice
Posts: 84
|
Post by jk on May 16, 2004 19:46:00 GMT -5
roninjotatan: you come to this site and see the majority of post by christians. The christian comes to these sites and sees the majority of posts by non-believers. There are two sides to every story. You are tired of hearing christians preach their faith and christians are tired of having their faith questioned. This thread, as i see it, was a simple question. Joel wanted to see how non-believers see the world. Sure he was a little supercilious in his asking but when a human thinks that hes right he's a little biased towards that oppinion. Just like you think that your right and it is the only right way. Maybe it is and maybe it isnt. I am impressed by christians, true christian, for finding something to believe in. For sticking to what they believe because following jesus's ways arent always easy. Spreading the faith is part of the faith itself. That way the beliefs perserve themselves. I can see nothing wrong with someone who is filled with so much love by their beliefs wanted to bring others to this same happiness. But unfortunately all peoples happiness do not lie in the same ends. Just like you will not be able to get the devout christian to revel in the truths of athiesm
|
|
jk
Novice
Posts: 84
|
Post by jk on May 16, 2004 19:54:45 GMT -5
Oh on a side note is there some special significance to the number 7?
|
|
|
Post by joelhaldeman on May 17, 2004 14:27:53 GMT -5
i was just curiouse. didnt wanna argue or encroach my beliefs on others. I want to hear what others are thinking about life. in all honesty if i didnt believe in god i would be rather depressed about life. maybe that is a weakeness, maybe jesus came to earth to accept the weak. i just want to tell people about jesus and i want to affect their lives, not based on my argument or clever words but based on the difference they see in my lifestyle. based on a servantlike and loving attitude.(although i have difficulty living this lifestyle at times) Thats why the second greatest commandment is to love other people just like you love yourself. That is why i see christianity as so simple.
|
|
|
Post by bobarian on May 17, 2004 14:50:22 GMT -5
Hmm, i have been away for the week-end but I still find this forum very interesting.
Why?
Because I care about people. I care about the fact that if someone does not believe in Jesus, if they have not ever repented of this world's life of misery, loneliness, and anger, the lifestyle of sin (rebellion), there will be nothing more than that certainly in the afterlife.
It will be hell.
But even more than I can love people I love God. Or at least, in His grace I strive for that the whole heart, soul and body thing every day. Full and total love, consuming passion of the soul. And seeing someone without the One I love... obviously hurts me. It is compassion that motivates me (not pity, nor condescension. I am no better than anyone else here).
That said: Followthereaper, using other people's direct words is an excellent form of debate and helps to clarify exactly about what one is talking. And it serves to force people to clarify their positions.
Ok, I totally don't agree with that swankshoez post. The reason that the bible is not confirmed by such codes is that the Bible is not a book of codes. The closest thing I can compare it to is a book of biographies. Its not meant to contain hidden meanings. If it did, it would tell us. Remember, God wrote it, not the Third Reich.
That said, there is plenty of prophecy within the Bible to show how it is true. There are something like 700 prophecies (perhaps more, I do not know) in the Old Testament about the birth of Christ. It would be literally impossible to for one person to be born and to fulfill them all (and impossible to fulfill them intentionally, either. How can you get yourself crucified (and who would want to either?)). I can post stuff about prophecy if anyone's interested. There is simply no other explanation besides the fact that God predicted it. Clear and simple.
This is important because if the Bible is true, we can understand God. I don't think the vast majority of people struggle with the existence of God. Most people live in a "practical agnosticism," including many Christians. There is a God, but we do not know how to know Him. Since the Bible is true, we can read a 66-book love letter written from the Heavenly Father (and the Son and the Spirit) to His creation whom He desperately wants to come back. That is incredible (ok, understatement).
If there is no God, and life is just the end, I see no point in living. The existential atheistic philosopher Camus understood this very well. Life is "absurd." What's the point in having more money, a good-looking girlfriend, the nicest car, drugs, or whatever else? In one short lifetime it will all be over, and it will not matter. Nothing will matter in the end view of things, so everything is meaningless. Life is simply an association of atoms that simply happened to be this way. Life is not worth living.
So the logical end of atheism is suicide. I understand this very well. If I was an atheist (and understood the logical implication of what I believed), I would be in the same situation. I'll be praying for you guys to come out of this.
Chao.
God is real and loves you all.
|
|
|
Post by Satori on May 17, 2004 14:56:09 GMT -5
i was just curiouse. didnt wanna argue or encroach my beliefs on others. I want to hear what others are thinking about life. Well, since you ask, there are two ways I look at it: 1. Grasping at life will lead to suffering. Grasping at anything impermanent (which is everything in my belief) will lead to suffering in fact. So liberation is achieved by removing that grasping. 2. Point 1 is easier said than done and after 20 years of practice I still grasp to lots of things and suffer the trappimgs of the material world.
|
|