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Post by joelhaldeman on Mar 17, 2004 22:03:30 GMT -5
i did do a good job of ignoring some of your points, i agree. The point i am making is that the majority of biblical scholars will say homosexuality is a sin. That is a fact. Now for homosexuality to be allowed in the bible you must be able to refute every single passage of scripture saying it is wrong. if i can refute just 1 of those passages then homosexuality a sin. Lev 18:22 is where we return to then. "Do not lie with a man as you lie with a woman" .....Can you explain to me how that relates to prostituation? Blasphemy is a word used through the entire bible and, no, it does not always mean something in the temple. I read to you a defenition of the word (disgusting, abhorrence, idolatry). In this context the best defenition would be disgusting. Now go ahead and tell me how this works...... Do not lie with a woman as one lies with a man, it is idolatry=there should not be prostitution in the temple this makes no sence at all, those 2 statements do not equal each other! Maybe it is sad that i am in the 2nd group, in order for me to change my mind about homosexuality i need to see some clear evidense; that i have not seen. Im going to put my trust into common sence. NIV:'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. NASB:'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. AMP:You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination. NLT:Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin. theres 4 different translations of the verse, if that is not enough go to www.biblegateway.org and type in lev 18:22 and then click on all 18 or so translations they have and you will see everyone agrees on what they are saying. How many sources do you need to be convinced? No apart from these verses which are more up front with the idea we can look at other verse. Whenever you read about marriage in the bible it refers to the husband and the wife. Romans 7 "...by law a married WOMAN is bound to her HUSBAND...." it does not say a married man to a man. 1 corinthians 7 "...but since there is much imormorality, each MAN should have one WIFE.." this entire chapter talks about marriage and its funny, paul always seem to be refering to a man and a woman. It never says anything about a man marrying a man. Ephesians 5 "WIVES, submit to your HUSBANDS" "children obey your parents....honor your FATHER and MOTHER" 1 timothy 3 "now the overseer, he must be the HUSBAND of one WIFE" -these are the people leading the church! this list goes on an on, im sorry if i am close minded and ignorant, but LOOK AT THE BIBLE VERSES! Im going to continue to call it absolutly CLEAR that the bible is against homosexuality. There is no room for interpretation here. There are areas of the bible that can be grey but homosexuality is black and white. I am not arguing this any more, if you are going to still hold that view then i will realize you dont want to change your mind because there is plenty of evidense in the bible against homosexuality. And by the way those verses you told me to read that seem to support homosexuality, they are rediculouse. they are refering to friendships and there is no hint of sexual activity amoung them. I do not think you are searching for the truth
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Post by joelhaldeman on Mar 17, 2004 22:05:41 GMT -5
disreguard all smily faces
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Post by Aislinne on Mar 18, 2004 9:11:06 GMT -5
Joelhaldeman:
You were not understanding the point of my post. My point is that the Bible was written by people from a specific time and through a specific perception of the world. Therefore, anything they write in the Bible, such as your wonderful homophobic quotes you pulled from it, reflects this perception. If you want to go even further, then one might say your perception of this issue is skewing what you see and do not see. You see homosexuals as blatantly wrong, therefore you support any miniscule item you find that might corroborate it.
Joelhaldeman:
So basically the people you are using as your scientific basis are people that are already bigoted into believing the very matter of which they are studying. Its like someone fighting for the right to smoke and using tobacco companies to back their points. And even if they are valid, they are only valid in a subjective manner. They are *opinions* and beliefs, not actual fact.
Colliohn:
*Exactly*! Why would a god purposefully create someone who could only find happiness in a way this god deemed evil? I do not know about anyone else, but my God is not so malicious, backhanded, or cruel.
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Post by Mike on Mar 18, 2004 14:25:31 GMT -5
Joel: It would appear, to me, that you did not read the extended description of Leviticus at either of the websites I mentioned, as you brought up points that are addressed at the websites. Therefore, I will paste below exactly what www.whosoever.org/bible/ says regarding Leviticus. I would like to make one point absolutely clear, even though it is addressed twice in the above text. Even if you completely disagree with everything pasted above, one fact remains: those passages in Leviticus are part of the Jewish Holiness Code, which the Church does NOT follow. What right do you (and the Church) have to dismiss all of the Holiness Code, except the alleged sinfulness of homosexuality? How can you not see that as blatantly selective, prejudicial, and unfair?
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Post by Aislinne on Mar 18, 2004 14:54:40 GMT -5
Yay Mike!
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Post by H-Zence on Mar 18, 2004 18:08:47 GMT -5
Here's one you'll get a kick out of... story.news.yahoo.com/news..._gay_ban_1U.S. National - AP Tenn. County Wants to Charge Homosexuals Wed Mar 17, 1:37 PM ET Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo! DAYTON, Tenn. - The county that was the site of the Scopes "Monkey Trial" over the teaching of evolution is asking lawmakers to amend state law so the county can charge homosexuals with crimes against nature. Related Links • State-by-State Laws (AP) The Rhea County commissioners approved the request 8-0 Tuesday. Commissioner J.C. Fugate, who introduced the measure, also asked the county attorney to find a way to enact an ordinance banning homosexuals from living in the county. "We need to keep them out of here," Fugate said. The vote was denounced by Matt Nevels, president of the Chattanooga chapter of Parents, Family and Friends of Lesbians and Gays. "That is the most farfetched idea put forth by any kind of public official," Nevels said. "I'm outraged." Last year, the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) struck down Texas' sodomy laws as a violation of adults' privacy. Rhea County is one of the most conservative counties in Tennessee. It holds an annual festival commemorating the 1925 trial at which John T. Scopes was convicted of teaching evolution. The verdict was thrown out on a technicality. The trial became the subject of the play and movie "Inherit the Wind." In 2002, a federal judge ruled unconstitutional the teaching of a Bible class in the public schools.
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Post by Mike on Mar 18, 2004 19:15:11 GMT -5
...I'm speechless.
And laughing quite a bit, until I saw the commissioners approved it 8-0...but, I guess that's not too surprising from a place that celebrates the conviction of John Scopes...
These are the types of people that the Bible endorses? My goodness...
If nothing else, the gay rights movement has certaintly shown how bigoted and stupid some people can be...though, at the same time, it has shown how accepting and open-minded some (hopefully the majority) are.
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Post by Aislinne on Mar 18, 2004 19:19:03 GMT -5
Hehe, I saw that article too. Sadly my state will likely attempt the similar things... but this time around (unlike 3 years ago when they adopted an anti civil unions ban) Im old enough to vote!!
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Post by joelhaldeman on Mar 18, 2004 19:30:51 GMT -5
the bible is not homophobic in any way. The bible does not condemn homosexuals. It states that homosexuality is a SIN. Homosexuals are no worse then people who steal, people who lie and people who cheat.
no, No, NO, this is coming from people who go to college and major in bible studies and get a doctorate in it and study greek because they want to find out the TRUTH. These people are in search of the truth and are correct when they say homosexuality is a sin.
Mike you can continue to point at that website but when you sit down and read the new testiment with an open mind you will find that the bible is very clearly against homosexuality. Gop ahead, read it, give it a try. If we are going to stick to the examples of the New Testiment i can still show you that marriage is intended for man and woman and the new testiment speaks of this over and over again. Go ahead read the letters from the apostle paul, he never says "man and man" or "husband and man" or "wife and wife". Im done arguing with you because this is stupid. You have shown me that your mind is not going to be changed because you are not looking for the truth. You are looking for the bible to approve homosexuality.
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Post by Aislinne on Mar 18, 2004 20:24:17 GMT -5
So basically people who find love and affection from another being (who just happen to be the same sex) are on the same morality level as people who decieve and cheat? Ok.... thats not messed up thinking at all if they are truly scholars then why are they seeking to find truth within religious matters and to pass moral judgement on others? they obviously are seeking out the truth because they have the intention of seeking out religious thought, not scientific, rational, objective findings. how do you know he hasnt already? did you ever consider that YOU are the one who has not yet sat down and read it with an open mind?...
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Post by Mike on Mar 18, 2004 20:55:40 GMT -5
Nicely said, Ais.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Mar 18, 2004 21:23:21 GMT -5
i can assure you have have sat down and tryed to understand those arguments and i can honestly say i think its bogus.... and yes by the way they are trying to find truth from the bible thats why they study it and not science. Im not looking for what makes the most sence, im not looking foir what is most comfortable, im not looking for what is easy to say and to satisfy everyone, i am looking for the truth. in this case, its not hard to find
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Post by H-Zence on Mar 18, 2004 21:46:43 GMT -5
If you're truly in search of truth and are not sure of what it is, you are agnostic. Most people, atheists, Christians, Jews, or any other religions, aren't looking for the truth: they already "know" it.
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Post by Aislinne on Mar 18, 2004 21:51:13 GMT -5
Well that much is obvious...
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Post by JohnnyJihadFace on Mar 19, 2004 21:35:14 GMT -5
the bible is not homophobic in any way. The bible does not condemn homosexuals. It states that homosexuality is a SIN. Homosexuals are no worse then people who steal, people who lie and people who cheat. no, No, NO, this is coming from people who go to college and major in bible studies and get a doctorate in it and study greek because they want to find out the TRUTH. These people are in search of the truth and are correct when they say homosexuality is a sin. Mike you can continue to point at that website but when you sit down and read the new testiment with an open mind you will find that the bible is very clearly against homosexuality. Gop ahead, read it, give it a try. If we are going to stick to the examples of the New Testiment i can still show you that marriage is intended for man and woman and the new testiment speaks of this over and over again. Go ahead read the letters from the apostle paul, he never says "man and man" or "husband and man" or "wife and wife". Im done arguing with you because this is stupid. You have shown me that your mind is not going to be changed because you are not looking for the truth. You are looking for the bible to approve homosexuality. This will be to the point. Joel, you got 'owned'. You got owned several times over, and are yet to even attempt at addressing his points. Instead, you type up a paragraph repeating your opinions once again, and in a basic manner, and telling us that his arguement is bogus. This is common in debates in losing parties, and I can admit to doing it myself once while being outwitted on a message board. The fact is, you've lost. Reading the new testament with an open mind only leads to questions, and questions lead to sites like the ones he provided links for. Maybe we should go check www.christiananswers.com. hah. According to them we can see the star light because the speed of light has miraculously changed in huge amounts since the creation of earth. Give me a break. This sujbect drives me insane. Destroy opposition to homosexuality. I am sick and tired of hearing constant anti-gay speech. And the majority of it based on christian beliefs. Sorry guys, but we don't base marriage laws on religion, and we sure as hell don't kick people out of scum-of-the-earth counties for who they fall in love with. I've got one more rude line in me for people trying to suppress gays, trying to stop them from being who they are and sharing equal rights as heterosexuals. Fall on your faces, motherfuckers.
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