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Post by joelhaldeman on Feb 1, 2004 0:08:14 GMT -5
In addition to the proofs above, there is the issue of accurate prophecy: The Old Testament contains 332 prophecies about the Messiah, and every one was fulfilled by Jesus hundreds of years after their writing. These prophecies include who his ancestors would be (Gen 9:26, 12:3, 12:18, 17:16, 35:10-12, Isaiah 11 and 2 Sam 7:12-16), what his role would be (Is 7:14, 9:6-7, 49:6, 29:18, 53:1-3 and Psalm 118:22), when he would come (Daniel 9:20-27), where he would be born (Micah 5:2) and many other specific details (Zech 9:9, Psalm 41:9, Zech 11:12, Zech 11:13, Psalm 22:16-17, Zech 12:10, Is 53:1-3 and Psalm 22:18). For the New Testament alone, we can examine over 24,000 manuscripts in agreement with each other in all the fundamental aspects of the faith. This is unheard of in terms of any other writings that are even centuries close to the age of these manuscripts.
They were written during times of extreme persecution. People risked their lives making copies in Roman times, since it was an executable offense to possess, copy or distribute writings. They even hid in the Catacombs beneath Rome in order to fellowship and worship. Why would people lay down their lives for a book that was not totally accurate? After all, some of them were eyewitnesses to the events that the New Testament writings had documented. They were willing to risk their lives because they knew that preserving the historical documents for future generations was worth dying for. Would you be willing to give your life for a book you thought was a lie ? Never. Neither would the early Christians, unless they knew with certainty the truth of the words they were protecting. They absolutely believed in the accuracy of the manuscripts and they gave their lives willingly to protect those manuscripts.
What are some examples of specific dates foretold miraculously in the Bible? One of the Old Testament prophecies was given by Daniel (Daniel 8:9-14)in about 536 B.C. and he told of a coming ruler who would: Overthrow Israel. Establish himself as ruler and "god". Take away daily sacrifices. Desecrate the temple. The reconsecration of the temple was to occur: 2,300 "evenings and mornings" afterward. This prophecy marks a milestone in Jewish history. Antiochus Epiphanes overthrew the priest in 171 B.C. and established himself as ruler and "god". He then prohibited sacrifices, persecuted the Jews, and desecrated the sanctuary with the sacrifice of a pig on the altar, which sparked the Maccabean revolt. Reconsecration of the temple took place on December 25, 164 B.C.-commemorated today by the Jewish holiday of Hanukkah. And it occurred 2,300 days after the beginning of the desecration, which started with the overthrow of the high priest.
Does the Bible contain any historical prophecies that we can know for certain foretold the future? Absolutely. One of the most exciting and recent prophecies that the Bible foretold was that Israel would be restored as a nation prior to the second coming of Christ. This was foretold in Genesis 13:14,15; Isaiah 11:11,12 and Ezekiel 37:21. There were incredible odds against the Jews regaining a homeland in the modern era. Hitler had killed over six million Jews during WWII. Yet, in 1948, the Jewish state of Israel was formed and Biblical prophecy had once again come to fruition. Isaiah even emphasized this return to the land by prophesying it as a second return from all corners of the earth. That is exactly what happened.
There are hundreds of other examples, but this is a more recent one that occurred in our generation. The Bible also has other prophecies concerning Israel and Jerusalem that will come to pass, either in our generation or a subsequent one.
How many historical prophecies that have been proven false are contained in the Bible? In a word: NONE! More than 1,000 prophecies fill the Bible, of which 668 are historical (the balance concern themselves with end times events). These prophecies are about people, places and events - precise prophecies made centuries in advance of their fulfillment. Prophecy helps verify that the Bible is never wrong.
Scholars have determined the the Bible is 99.9% accurate as a historical document. In the ancient manuscripts previously mentioned, various people are also mentioned specifically. For example, there is archaeological evidence of the home of Peter the apostle in Capernaum. In fact, Biblical Archaeology Review (Sept/Oct 1993) explained the significance of that city and the actual current site.
The words of Pontius Pilate are engraved on a stone in the coliseum in Rome.
Jesus is mentioned in archaeology on many occasions. Seventeen different authors (non Christian authors )wrote about Jesus within 100 yrs of his death. They wrote about the resurrection, His miracles as well as the apostles. Jesus is the most documented person who ever walked on the face of the earth.
Two famous archaeologists, Albright and Ramsey set out to disprove the Bible as a historical document. The end result after extensive research was their conversion to Christianity, given the evidence they discovered about the accuracy in regards to people, events and places mentioned in the Bible.
Ramsey even credited Luke with being the greatest historian who ever lived, based on his writing of the book of Acts.
Do modern archaeological finds support or contradict the Bible? Archaeological finds continue to overwhelmingly support the biblical record as being accurate. Where contradictions have arisen, most have ultimately been resolved when additional discoveries are made or additional analysis is done.
Still, archaeology cannot PROVE the Bible since archaeology is merely a glimpse into the past using the scant evidence that it reveals. It cannot prove that any biblical figure actually said what is recorded, but it can certainly lend credibility to the existence of people, places and events as the Bible says. The old adage applies: "absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence" and there is little doubt that new finds will shed light on many of our uestions.
What other holy books contain proven, miraculous, historical prophecy? No other holy book has the prophetic accuracy of the Bible. Most holy books, including those of the major world religions, are noticeably void of prophecy. Since prophecy is a standard by which to "test everything", one would expect works not from God to avoid prophecy (or to contain errors). A few holy books of some religions contain limited attempts at prophecy, with results that fall short of God's perfect standard. A few examples include:
The Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrines and Covenants False Prophecy: Jesus to be born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10) which is defined to be a distinctly separate city (1 Nephi:4). History and the Bible confirm Bethlehem as Jesus' birthplace. Information claimed to be historical within the Book of Mormon has not been confirmed as true. The Smithsonian Institution flatly rejected the book as historical. Watchtower (Studies in Scripture) - Jehovah Witnesses End of the World predicted to be: 1914,1915,1918,1920,1925,1942,1975,1980... This was documented in Studies in Scripture (2:101; 7:62,7:542), as well as the 1924 edition.
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Post by joelhaldeman on Feb 1, 2004 0:09:52 GMT -5
The Jewish People If anyone wishes to know whether or not the God of the Bible exists, one of the strongest reasons he can examine is the Jewish people. An honest inquiry into this question will provide more than an adequate answer to the truthfulness of the Christian faith. About 4,000 years ago, God called a man named Abram out of the country where he was living and gave him these promises: I will make you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great; so you shall be a blessing: And I will bless those that bless you and the one who curses you I will curse: and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed (Genesis 12:2,3). And the LORD said to Abram ... Now lift up your eyes, and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever (Genesis 13:14,15). In other words, God promised to Abram (1) a great nation; (2) a great name; (3) being a blessing to all nations; and (4) a land which shall forever belong to his descendants. Several hundred years after God made these promises to Abram, the great nation had indeed appeared, numbering in the millions. They were about to enter the land of promise when God, through their leader, Moses, gave them some warnings as recorded in Deuteronomy chapters 28 - 33. God warned them against disobedience and promised that He would use other nations to remove them from that land if they were unfaithful to Him. He predicted that they would eventually be scattered across the whole earth as strangers in unfamiliar lands and that they would find no rest from their wanderings. However, God in His faithfulness did promise to bring them back into their land. What has been the verdict of history? The children of Israel, even though they were warned, fell into idolatry and were removed from their homeland. In 606 B.C. King Nebuchadnezzar took the people captive to Babylon and returned in 588 - 586 B.C., at which time, after a long siege, he burned the city and the Temple. However, as God promised, He allowed those who desired to return to the land in 537 -536 B.C., or after 70 years (Ezra, chapter 1). The removal from their homeland occurred a second time in A.D. 70 when Titus the Roman destroyed the city of Jerusalem and scattered the people. For almost 1,900 years, the Jews wandered about the earth as strangers who were persecuted from every side. This culminated in the holocaust of World War II, when six million Jews were put to death in the concentration camps. Yet, against all odds, the state of Israel was reborn on May 14, 1948, and the Jews began to return to their homeland from all points of the compass. This was the second time in their history since becoming a nation that they have come back into their land. Since 1948 they have survived some terrible conflicts, including the 1967 Six-Day War and the 1973 Holy Day War. Through all this, the nation neither perished nor lost its national identity. History has demonstrated that any people who leave their homeland will, after about five generations, lose their national identity by being absorbed into the new culture, but the Jews remained a distinct entity. Not only have they survived, but also the nations that persecuted them-Moab, Ammon, Edom, Philistia and many others-have either been destroyed or have completely lost their individual identity. Have you ever beard of a Swedish Moabite? A Russian Philistine? A German Edomite? An American Ammonite? No! These people have been totally absorbed into other cultures and races. However, have you ever heard of a Swedish Jew? A Russian Jew? A German Jew? An American Jew? Yes! As prophesied, they have not lost their identity. An example is the Genesis reference to the Hittite culture at least three times. No historical (written) evidence was found of the Hittites so critics claimed the Hittites were myth until the 1930’s when ruins of the Hittite people were discovered in Central Turkey.
Many bullae (signature stamps) of biblical prophets and scribes have been uncovered in the past decade which have added a high degree of credibility to the histories recorded in the Bible.
Misconceptions about the shape of the earth existed as late as the time of Columbus. Isaiah, speaking about 700 B.C., correctly identified the shape of the earth.
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." Isaiah 40:22
The Bible contains a few surprising insights into engineering that were not discovered until hundreds of years later.
The Ark of Noah The detailed design of the ark is an example of an engineering design far ahead of its' time. Naval engineers now know that the length-to-width ratio specified in the Bible is ideal for the stability of a barge-like ship (non-propelled) designed for rough seas.
"This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Make a roof for it and finish the ark to within 18 inches of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish." Genesis 1:15-17
Buildings Only the temple and tabernacle were based on designs directed by God. The engineering of both buildings is basic, simple and effective. Of greater significance is the architecture which skillfully integrates complex symbology and purpose with good design. The artistic significance and beauty of these structures, admired for centuries, are often viewed as designs that were far ahead of their time. God designed the temple as follows:
"The temple that King Solomon built for the LORD was sixty cubits long, twenty wide and thirty high. The portico at the front of the main hall of the temple extended the width of the temple, that is twenty cubits, and projected ten cubits from the front of the temple. He made narrow clerestory windows in the temple. Against the walls of the main hall and inner sanctuary he built a structure around the building, in which there were side rooms. The lowest floor was five cubits wide, the middle floor six cubits and the third floor seven. He made offset ledges around the outside of the temple so that nothing would be inserted into the temple walls. In building the temple, only blocks dressed at the quarry were used, and no hammer, chisel or any other iron tool was heard at the temple site while it was being built. The entrance to the lowest floor was on the south side of the temple; a stairway led up to the middle level and from there to the third. So he built the temple and completed it, roofing it with beams and cedar planks. And he built the side rooms all along the temple. The height of each was five cubits, and they were attached to the temple by beams of cedar." 1Kings 6:2-10
All of this was posted earlier
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Post by Scot on Feb 6, 2004 1:57:37 GMT -5
He gave us a choice. He said, sin and go to hell or dont sin and live in paradise. Adam choose to sin. The whole world is now sinfull. You sin. I sin. We all sin. God thinks 'well i dont want to send everyone to hell because im a nice guy'. So god says Ill give them a choice. People choose to go to hell. God punishes them. God is evil. ? Okay this is interesting. God is not evil because he is out of the league of our human laws. God sends people to hell, and I call that wrong, but it doesn't matter; he is God and everything is rightious that he does. This is simply because human rules do not apply to him. But ya know what, I think that is just God saying 'na na na na na, you can't get me' and having fun toying with humans. That is God being an ass. So according to me, and some other people, and our human laws, whether God exists or not, he might not be nice.
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Post by ajmizu on Feb 11, 2004 20:53:25 GMT -5
Okay this is interesting. God is not evil because he is out of the league of our human laws. God sends people to hell, and I call that wrong, but it doesn't matter; he is God and everything is rightious that he does. This is simply because human rules do not apply to him. But ya know what, I think that is just God saying 'na na na na na, you can't get me' and having fun toying with humans. That is God being an ass. So according to me, and some other people, and our human laws, whether God exists or not, he might not be nice. God isn't good because He says they are good, they genuinely are. God doesn't do bad things only because He said they are bad. Otherwise there would be no reasons for why things are bad or why they are good. I guess people could make up reasons, but that would be stupid. I'm not quite sure if this helps, or if it just aggravates the situation...
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Post by Colliohn on Feb 13, 2004 19:17:35 GMT -5
Wait... you basically just said the there couldn't be right or wrong without god?
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Post by DeliveUSToDeth on Sept 26, 2004 18:22:53 GMT -5
no one knows if he was white they dont even know what he looks like
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Post by H-Zence on Sept 26, 2004 20:24:23 GMT -5
He's more likely to be dark-skinned because he lived in the middle-east. That was the point of discussion - that racist Americans who founded the idea of painting Jesus (without knowing what he looked like) made him light-skinned because they couldn't stand the idea of a Jesus who looks like Osama.
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Post by validusermattk on Sept 30, 2004 21:38:16 GMT -5
if we are supposed to follow "jesus" then why are we not all jewish? And if jesus is the main though/idea behind religon then how can he be jewish or even classified a religion, before there is any religon about him?
and if we are all related some how then how are we not all jewish? or for that matter all the same color skin?
::edit:: any one else think its ironic that steve is classified as "god" ...
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Post by Satori on Oct 1, 2004 3:56:36 GMT -5
if we are supposed to follow "jesus" We're not. That's a matter of personal choice. It's one faith of many, which includes agnosticism and atheism. Jesus fronted a change in Judaism and that change developed into Christianity. Christianity as we understand it today owes more to what happened since Christ than when he was around though. A lot of politics has changed the Christian story over the years.
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Post by validusermattk on Oct 1, 2004 22:31:20 GMT -5
why would he change everything, i don't get it...i mean if there is or is not a god, then why aren't we all the same religion or the same everything? if adam and eve were the first people on earth and everthing came from them then how do we all have different cultures, languages, skin color, and anything else? Why is ther more than one relgion and why do some religions not like others? Like Babtist and the RC's don't like each other due to the fact that babtist don't thing "the virgin mother mary" was real...but they belive in Jesus, i mean its like a game of whisper down the lane, one guy says something, and tells others and the story gets twisted and turned and then we have different religions? And How come some religions like most christian ones belive in one god? and others have more than one god? I mean which one is right? I mean there are so many different beliefs and so many differnt morals that its hard to belive just one, cause if you go with one , then there is another one that is different then the religion that you are for, so which one is the right one? Seriously if you really ask your self that, which one is the correct one, since they are all different they can't be all correct...so awsner me this which one is the right one, i mean you have a belief and then a guy name jesus comes and changes all beliefs and they branch from those into new ones and so on and so forth. I mean the only real prof they have of all this adam and eve stuff is things other people have said and it just being passed on and on and on, sometimes changing?? I think if there was or wasn't a god, we would all be the same race, relgion, all of that stuff, cause i mean it says god created man, pictures and people say they were white, so you ask how dark skin people came to the earth? they say cause they lived in africa and they sun is bright so they became darker, but isn't that evolution, which most chritians/ relgions are agains? And what about the dinosaurs and all the crap, there is proof that there were dinosaurs, but it says that god created heaven, earth etc...but then man, where do dinosaurs fall in to place? They have proof of dinosaurs, they have actual pieces of them, im just so confused cause there is so many different religions that i can't see straigt, and if you think about god is kinda a Hypocrite, cause he says all this stuff, about not worshiping things blah blah blah , and only doing stuff he says, what the hell? ok its wrong to worship other things but okay to worship him? That doesn't make sense, im really not liking all of this like the ten commandments and stuff, it says its all a "sin" to do all this and that, yet half the stuff on there you are doing to / for "god"...i went to church cause my mom said i had to, not cause i wanted to, and everytime i go, i sit there and wonder if what the priest went on is the truth, cause you could say, yeah a priest/pastor what ever you want to the call the man, it has to be true there is evidence blah blah blah there is things you can study and so on, yet a scientist is sorta the same thing, he has scientific proof of evolution, and that all the stuff that christians say hasn't happened, its all evolution, there is strong evidence on both sides, i think that science has a little stronger evidence then the other, which would be the reason why i am undecided, anyway, i think if jesus is from the middle east and if you back track, it would lead to adam and eve making thme middle east, then we should all be middle eastern decent of sometype, but we aren't so that would say that we all came from the "middle east" decent then over time and evolution formed in to the race, whatever you wanna call it, that we are today, so im undecided on the subject but i would say that jesus wasn't white and more "middle eastern decent" i would say what john said says it best... "exactly steve.
This character was from the middle east, but I mean do you really think American Culture would accept a dark skinned jesus? especially in the early days.
Think about all the slave owners, and more so all the racists from the 60s as well as before and now. But specifically back then, They were all claiming to be ultra-christians and such while absolutely hating the black man, now this isnt a speech on how christians shouldnt hate, but more so how hilarious it is that these idiotic racists absolutely hated the race of the skin color of their beloved jesus." johnnythejihadfacethere maybe misspellings or use of wrong words, i appoligize.
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Post by Satori on Oct 2, 2004 1:59:50 GMT -5
why would he change everything, i don't get it...i mean if there is or is not a god, then why aren't we all the same religion or the same everything? if adam and eve were the first people on earth and everthing came from them then how do we all have different cultures, languages, skin color, and anything else? Why is ther more than one relgion and why do some religions not like others? Like Babtist and the RC's don't like each other due to the fact that babtist don't thing "the virgin mother mary" was real...but they belive in Jesus, i mean its like a game of whisper down the lane, one guy says something, and tells others and the story gets twisted and turned and then we have different religions? And How come some religions like most christian ones belive in one god? and others have more than one god? I mean which one is right? I mean there are so many different beliefs and so many differnt morals that its hard to belive just one, cause if you go with one , then there is another one that is different then the religion that you are for, so which one is the right one? Because that's the way things are. It's the way society developed. Religion is largely about faith and you're free to choose what you like to have faith in. Buddhism is the right one for me. Christianity is the right one for, say, Bobarian. It is quite likely that we'll never absolutely proove one religion over another, so we each have to make a personal choice. Even if we did get something that could be said to be proof it is unlikely that it would overrule the faith in many people. Such is the nature of faith. I'm not sure there's any proof of the Adam and Eve stuff at all beyond what's in Genesis and I think a lot of the practitioners of religions that have Genesis as one of their holy books see it as symbolic anyway. Yes, there are still some staunch creationists about, but not as many as there used to be. I can't see any connection between the existence of God (or not) and the colour of the skin of people on this planet. They do and I think you're taking a very restricted view of modern Christians if you think that they deny the existence of dinosaurs. You seem to be beating yourself up about religion, but there's no need. Just take your time and either choose one, choose an amalgamation of religions or choose none. Invent your own if you like. The way I see religion is that it's a way to reduce suffering in our life either by giving us a greater understanding of our spirituality or a belief in some higher power and/or cause; how you choose to do that is up to you. The important thing (IMHO) is that you don't ago about shooting people for having different beliefs.
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Post by desertfox on Oct 3, 2004 19:49:16 GMT -5
If Jesus was an ayran, then he would have been red like a lobster from cooking in the desert sun, since he walked almost everywhere!
Also there are 2 major types of jews in Israel,
white eastern and northern european jews that are mostly fair skined, and the middle eastern jews that have medditereanean like skin and come from the same blood line as many non jewish middle easterners.
I would imagine that jesus would look similar to most middle easterners becuase if you look at people from europe that have tan/dark skin compared to most white anglo's, the origin of that "meditereanean" skin type probably came from arab conquerors mingling with the local poplulation during the darkages.
Although I am half anglo half hispanic, the meditereanean skin that I have comes obvously from the hispanic side. I tan while my dad burns and turns red. In most cases hispanics with darker skin usualy get it from one of 3 places, either from indian (new world not india), black, or from Spain via the arab conquest. In my case my skin probably has an arab or jew origin if you go back many hundered years, since my mother's ancestors stayed in Spain until the turn of the 20th century when they come to Cuba. This doesn't mean that Jesus was of medeterean skin type, although it is vert likely. An earlier post mentioned about aryans in India, blond hair blue eyed can exist in groups of poeple that have tan skin and blown eyes. My mother's cousin is fairskined, blonde haired, and blue eyed even though she is 100% Cuban (Spanish acenstory).
On the other hand this whole argument is realy irrelevent becuase God impregnated Mary so Jesus could be a black asian for all we know, since he was not concieved in the "normal way" he could be anything.
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Post by Lynnet on Oct 3, 2004 22:16:45 GMT -5
why would he change everything, i don't get it...i mean if there is or is not a god, then why aren't we all the same religion or the same everything? if adam and eve were the first people on earth and everthing came from them then how do we all have different cultures, languages, skin color, and anything else? Why is ther more than one relgion and why do some religions not like others? Like Babtist and the RC's don't like each other due to the fact that babtist don't thing "the virgin mother mary" was real...but they belive in Jesus, i mean its like a game of whisper down the lane, one guy says something, and tells others and the story gets twisted and turned and then we have different religions? And How come some religions like most christian ones belive in one god? and others have more than one god? I mean which one is right? I mean there are so many different beliefs and so many differnt morals that its hard to belive just one, cause if you go with one , then there is another one that is different then the religion that you are for, so which one is the right one? ... You sound very much like myself over the past year or so. I have come to the conclusion that there is no higher power other than that of life itself, however I could be totally off. There is no truth other than the one that you discover for yourself. You can research through all the religions in the world and still not find one that is perfect for you; I'm still looking, most recently at Zen, which is rather intreguing. I wish you well on your search
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Post by Satori on Oct 4, 2004 2:01:18 GMT -5
On the other hand this whole argument is realy irrelevent becuase God impregnated Mary so Jesus could be a black asian for all we know, since he was not concieved in the "normal way" he could be anything. Actually, the whole aspect of virgin birth is probably due to an error in translation. The original passage in Isaiah that predicted the virgin birth didn't use the Hebrew word for virgin (which is ' betulah'), but used the more generic term of ' almah', which means something more like 'young woman'. This seems to have been mistranslated into Greek as 'virgin' at some point in the 2nd century AD. Christians argue that ' almah' is always taken to mean virgin in Biblical lingo, but I'd have thought that if the Hebrews meant virgin then that's what they'd have said.
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Post by Satori on Oct 4, 2004 2:03:43 GMT -5
I'm still looking, most recently at Zen, which is rather intreguing. Soto or Rinzai?
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